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Post by tomtomplayboy on Jun 11, 2022 8:30:38 GMT -5
Listened to the Feel Flows box-set yesterday for the first time in months (it largely sits gathering dust on my shelf), and then I listened to the new '2021 remix' of Marcella for the second time this morning, and it got me thinking...
A prequel to John Carpenter's classic The Thing (1982) was released in 2011. It too was called The Thing and, ahead of its release, it was hugely anticipated by fans.
All involved with the film were determined to stay faithful to the much-loved 1982 original, and - despite the fashion at the time - they used practical effects instead of CGI in order to respect the fanbase and to remain true to Carpenter's classic film (which, in case you haven't seen it, features arguably the greatest practical effects ever committed to film).
But then...
Well, then the studios got involved and they insisted that the incredible practical effects be replaced with cheap-looking CGI. Why? Because that, apparently, is what 'younger audiences' wanted. And so months and months and months of hard work was ruined by having tacky CGI splattered over the top.
The studios were wrong. The film flopped. Audiences stayed away, both young and old, and the film remains largely disliked by fans of John Carpenter's The Thing.
Now let's consider IAG buying a majority stake in the Beach Boys catalogue...
Prior to this taking place, we had The Pet Sounds Sessions, The Smile Sessions, the Endless Harmony Soundtrack, Sunshine Tomorrow, Party! Unplugged, Wake the World, Made in California, etc.
These stunning archive releases all have exceptional sound quality and are almost universally loved by Beach Boys fans of all ages. Mark Linett and co truly worked magic with these releases, and we should all be eternally grateful to Mark and co that we have enjoyed so many high-quality archive releases over the last few decades.
But then...
Well, then IAG got involved, and the next release - the Feel Flows box-set - had a noticeably different sound quality, which, it is safe to say, rather divided opinion among Beach Boys fans.
Suddenly, the audio sounded digital and harsh, rather than warm and welcoming, with excessive use of treble and compression, and vocals that sounded shrill. All very un-Beach Boys-like.
My questions: Is it purely coincidence that the audio quality dropped upon IAG getting involved? If not, are the powers-that-be at IAG insisting that the music has to sound like this? Do they believe (as per the studio behind The Thing prequel) that this is what 'younger audiences' want? Do younger audiences really prefer their music to sound like this? Even if they do (which is doubtful), is it really worth alienating and disappointing longtime fans in order to appease hypothetical youngsters with questionable taste in music? Are the Beach Boys really going to disappear if their music isn't 'updated' with unpleasant digital-sounding remixes? (Remind me again how many copies Sounds of Summer has sold - and continues to sell - since its release in 2003?)
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Post by E on Jun 11, 2022 10:09:29 GMT -5
There were people moaning about the audio, physical quality and price of Made in California - on here, on Hoffmann, elsewhere when it was released. And the second Pet Sounds box too, I think...
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Jun 11, 2022 10:45:55 GMT -5
There were people moaning about the audio, physical quality and price of Made in California - on here, on Hoffmann, elsewhere when it was released. And the second Pet Sounds box too, I think... I think different type of issues existed on MiC, like the 2 seconds of silence tacked to beginning of the songs instead of at the back. Packaging issues, etc. I don’t remember many mixing or mastering issues regarding sound.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Jun 11, 2022 10:55:42 GMT -5
If Iconic is responsible, then I am surprised that Capitol would allow the music from their library to be affected (GV and Shut Down) unless both were in agreement to release it this way.
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Post by Rick Bartlett on Jun 11, 2022 11:18:31 GMT -5
Oh it's not a new Linett process, check out the scattered and incomplete botched 2012 mono/stereo remasters. Plenty of spine tingling brittle top end on those beauties and the cutoff intro to s'Toked' from the 'Surfin USA' album.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Jun 11, 2022 11:34:54 GMT -5
It’s been a slow but noticeable decline since 2017. Sunshine tomorrow: sounded great Sunshine Tomorrow 2: slightly more compressed but overall still fantastic. Wake the World: same as ST2 I Can Hear Music: a lot more compression, quite a bit more noticeable tape hiss and odd Digital glitching, but still overall very nice to listen to. California music presents add some music: this is where the problems really start to show themselves. Brittle high-end, tuns of compression on everything, ear piercing vocal processing, tuns of Digital distortion. Feel Flows, brittle treble heavy ear splitting remasters from the standard album, but all the bonus tracks that were newly mixed are tolerable, some great, especially a lot of the Dennis material. Long Promised Road Soundtrack: and now we are right in the bad era. What’s this? Who let this slide? The fact that the free mp3 download of this track off of Brian‘s website that was a rough mix made 30 years ago sounds better than The official label backed release mixed sometime within the last three years or so is really just baffling. If it truly is iconic responsible, my main question is is there literally anyone under 40 working there who actually gets to listen and approve this stuff?
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Jun 11, 2022 11:40:47 GMT -5
There were people moaning about the audio, physical quality and price of Made in California - on here, on Hoffmann, elsewhere when it was released. And the second Pet Sounds box too, I think... maybe at first, but were there still several active threads almost a year later about the topic?
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Post by tomtomplayboy on Jun 11, 2022 14:51:41 GMT -5
There were people moaning about the audio, physical quality and price of Made in California - on here, on Hoffmann, elsewhere when it was released. And the second Pet Sounds box too, I think... I think different type of issues existed on MiC, like the 2 seconds of silence tacked to beginning of the songs instead of at the back. Packaging issues, etc. I don’t remember many mixing or mastering issues regarding sound. Aside from criticism of the oddly flat mix of You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin', I've personally only ever heard praise for the sound of MIC. There was the issue with the faulty CD3 with the two-second delay at the start, but, as you say, that's completely different to compression-heavy mastering that impacts the entire set. The actual music on MIC sounded utterly glorious.
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sockit
Grommet
Posts: 32
Likes: 49
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Post by sockit on Jun 11, 2022 16:46:00 GMT -5
Oh it's not a new Linett process, check out the scattered and incomplete botched 2012 mono/stereo remasters. Plenty of spine tingling brittle top end on those beauties and the cutoff intro to s'Toked' from the 'Surfin USA' album.
Yes, exactly. Those shrill sounding 2012 reissues in their flimsy eco-wallets. Fortunately Kevin Grey smoothed out the mastering on the SACDs, which are my go-to.
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Post by northcoast on Jun 11, 2022 22:25:04 GMT -5
Just listened to Feel Flows Sunflower tracks in tandem with the 2001 or 2012 Sunflower remaster on Apple Music. Also listened to the 2001 remaster of Marcella against the new mix. Across the board, the vocals are pulled back and the bottom is much more pronounced. I do have a subwoofer which accounts for the noticeable presence of more bass. But I hear none of the shrillness in the Feel Flows mixes. Just the opposite. But Linett is mixing down the lead vocals and this is very pronounced on Marcella. Carl's 1972 lead bursts out of the speakers but the 2021 remix turns his volume down and brings up other elements. Which is fine for me. I have the original mix on five different albums so whenever I want the original, I can cue it up as needed.
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Post by John Manning on Jun 12, 2022 5:09:35 GMT -5
What’s this? Who let this slide? The fact that the free mp3 download of this track off of Brian‘s website that was a rough mix made 30 years ago sounds better than The official label backed release mixed sometime within the last three years or so is really just baffling. CD version still to land (if it even gets a UK/EU release at all… still no reassuring signs) – hoping that gets “definitive” mastering.
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Post by EST583JRX on Jun 12, 2022 16:00:35 GMT -5
10 years ago, I thought the fans who complained about Mark's mixes were crazy and ignorant. It was obvious then that they had no idea what they were complaining about. "Why is it in mono?!?" Answer: it's a vintage mix. "Where's the lead vocal?!?" Answer: the stems weren't available.
I think those fans created something of a "boy who cried wolf" relationship from the perspective of Mark, Alan, and others. That's why we have radio silence from them today. They got tired of engaging with ignorance. If BRI thinks the mixes sound flawless, then they must sound flawless.
"I could try to be big in the eyes of the fans, what matters to me is what I could be to just Howieeeeee..."
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Post by dauber on Jun 12, 2022 20:51:20 GMT -5
Fact: people have been complaining about the sound of Beach Boys releases as far back as frickin' 1990.
Nine-teen-effing-NINETY.
Go to a search engine that can search Usenet posts and include "Mark Linett" and "NoNoise" as your search terms.
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Post by boogieboarder on Jun 13, 2022 2:22:40 GMT -5
Fact: people have been complaining about the sound of Beach Boys releases as far back as frickin' 1990.
Nine-teen-effing-NINETY.
Go to a search engine that can search Usenet posts and include "Mark Linett" and "NoNoise" as your search terms.
The first CDs put out by almost every record company for every artist had bad sound. In many cases, they just used the vinyl LP master tape, which had been mastered by engineers who tweaked the EQ knowing how to make vinyl sound good. Only much later did they start issuing “Digital 24-bit masters,” and many of us had to buy the same CD’s again. Then they started brick walling. There were a couple of good years where CDs sounded good, somewhere between the early 90s and the end of the decade.
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Post by Rick Bartlett on Jun 13, 2022 3:35:28 GMT -5
Fact: people have been complaining about the sound of Beach Boys releases as far back as frickin' 1990.
Nine-teen-effing-NINETY.
Go to a search engine that can search Usenet posts and include "Mark Linett" and "NoNoise" as your search terms.
The first CDs put out by almost every record company for every artist had bad sound. In many cases, they just used the vinyl LP master tape, which had been mastered by engineers who tweaked the EQ knowing how to make vinyl sound good. Only much later did they start issuing “Digital 24-bit masters,” and many of us had to buy the same CD’s again. Then they started brick walling. There were a couple of good years where CDs sounded good, somewhere between the early 90s and the end of the decade. I have some early CD compilation Rock n Roll discs that if you listen close, are actually needle drops. That was a lousy trick.
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Post by AGD on Jun 13, 2022 4:14:39 GMT -5
10 years ago, I thought the fans who complained about Mark's mixes were crazy and ignorant. It was obvious then that they had no idea what they were complaining about. "Why is it in mono?!?" Answer: it's a vintage mix. "Where's the lead vocal?!?" Answer: the stems weren't available. I think those fans created something of a "boy who cried wolf" relationship from the perspective of Mark, Alan, and others. That's why we have radio silence from them today. They got tired of engaging with ignorance. If BRI thinks the mixes sound flawless, then they must sound flawless. " I could try to be big in the eyes of the fans, what matters to me is what I could be to just Howieeeeee..." Or maybe... just maybe... they're busy with other more pressing things to occupy their day ? From what I've observed these last few years, and what's been hinted here and there, the CopEx program is both much more complex than we think and has been teetering on the brink of extinction more than once. I can't believe Capitol/UMG make much, if any, money from these things, especially the physical product. And yet, we still have them, year after year pretty much. Name me one other major artist other than Dylan who does this. Is there a version of Revolver out there with session material, outtakes and live tracks ? I'd sell a major organ for one of those. Unless I missed it, which, frankly, is entirely possible these days.
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Post by Al S on Jun 13, 2022 4:58:15 GMT -5
10 years ago, I thought the fans who complained about Mark's mixes were crazy and ignorant. It was obvious then that they had no idea what they were complaining about. "Why is it in mono?!?" Answer: it's a vintage mix. "Where's the lead vocal?!?" Answer: the stems weren't available. I think those fans created something of a "boy who cried wolf" relationship from the perspective of Mark, Alan, and others. That's why we have radio silence from them today. They got tired of engaging with ignorance. If BRI thinks the mixes sound flawless, then they must sound flawless. " I could try to be big in the eyes of the fans, what matters to me is what I could be to just Howieeeeee..." Or maybe... just maybe... they're busy with other more pressing things to occupy their day ? From what I've observed these last few years, and what's been hinted here and there, the CopEx program is both much more complex than we think and has been teetering on the brink of extinction more than once. I can't believe Capitol/UMG make much, if any, money from these things, especially the physical product. And yet, we still have them, year after year pretty much. Name me one other major artist other than Dylan who does this. Is there a version of Revolver out there with session material, outtakes and live tracks ? I'd sell a major organ for one of those. Unless I missed it, which, frankly, is entirely possible these days.Not yet, but with the run of Pepper’s through to Let It Be recently rehashed, I’d wildly guess a Revolver package is not far off.
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Post by AGD on Jun 13, 2022 5:11:41 GMT -5
Best schedule the removal surgery...
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Post by tomtomplayboy on Jun 13, 2022 8:49:35 GMT -5
10 years ago, I thought the fans who complained about Mark's mixes were crazy and ignorant. It was obvious then that they had no idea what they were complaining about. "Why is it in mono?!?" Answer: it's a vintage mix. "Where's the lead vocal?!?" Answer: the stems weren't available. I think those fans created something of a "boy who cried wolf" relationship from the perspective of Mark, Alan, and others. That's why we have radio silence from them today. They got tired of engaging with ignorance. If BRI thinks the mixes sound flawless, then they must sound flawless. " I could try to be big in the eyes of the fans, what matters to me is what I could be to just Howieeeeee..." I'm sure there are fans who have complained about previous archive releases over the last few decades, but I'm not one of them. I pretty much loved - or at the very least really, really, really liked - every single archive release prior to Feel Flows. I thought Mark Linett and co worked magic with almost all of them. It is only due to the poor mastering and compression/treble issues that I have an issue with Feel Flows. Sure, I don't like all the remixes on the box-set (I have absolutely no idea what the hell they were trying to with Celebrate the News), but I have the originals so it's not a problem. But the audio issues also impact some of the previously unreleased material and that is why I am so worried that they are going to repeat the same mastering quality on CATP/Holland. I dread the thought of Carry Me Home finally seeing official release and sounding harsh and overly compressed and trebly.
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Post by EST583JRX on Jun 13, 2022 9:04:00 GMT -5
Or maybe... just maybe... they're busy with other more pressing things to occupy their day ? Yes, that was exactly my point. I'm also conscious of the possibility that they know they'll be stepping on somebody's toes if they ever acknowledge that the compression and treble is a real issue. When there's so little transparency, that's usually a sign that things are more complicated than we think.
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Post by dauber on Jun 13, 2022 9:11:40 GMT -5
Okay, here's what I propose, to IAG, Mark Linett, Jean Sievers, Tom Hulett, whoever....
When it comes time to master all future Beach Boys releases, take a panel of the three to ten loudest-complaining Beach Boys fans about the sound of the Feel Flows box set. Bring them to the mastering sessions and get their approval. Let them supply their own playback equipment. If it doesn't sound right to these fans, then master it to their satisfaction. Make them sign confidentiality affidavits as necessary, vows to not bug themselves such that the set could be leaked early, etc. Don't offer pay or travel -- their pay is getting to hear this stuff before everybody else and, best of all, contribute to the approval process. (Hell, I only have a few sound complaints about FF in general, but dude, I'd still do this -- I'll pay my own way to California for this privilege!)
Do that.
And I promise you there will still be complaints about the sound.
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Post by dauber on Jun 13, 2022 9:14:08 GMT -5
Not yet, but with the run of Pepper’s through to Let It Be recently rehashed, I’d wildly guess a Revolver package is not far off.
Giles Martin said he plans to do this next.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Jun 13, 2022 9:21:53 GMT -5
Okay, here's what I propose, to IAG, Mark Linett, Jean Sievers, Tom Hulett, whoever....
When it comes time to master all future Beach Boys releases, take a panel of the three to ten loudest-complaining Beach Boys fans about the sound of the Feel Flows box set. Bring them to the mastering sessions and get their approval. Let them supply their own playback equipment. If it doesn't sound right to these fans, then master it to their satisfaction. Make them sign confidentiality affidavits as necessary, vows to not bug themselves such that the set could be leaked early, etc. Don't offer pay or travel -- their pay is getting to hear this stuff before everybody else and, best of all, contribute to the approval process. (Hell, I only have a few sound complaints about FF in general, but dude, I'd still do this -- I'll pay my own way to California for this privilege!)
Do that.
And I promise you there will still be complaints about the sound.
Yep, it is what makes us all individuals. Wouldn’t be much fun if we were all Stepford’s.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Jun 13, 2022 9:31:12 GMT -5
Is there a version of Revolver out there with session material, outtakes and live tracks ? I'd sell a major organ for one of those. Unless I missed it, which, frankly, is entirely possible these days. Sam Okell has said in a recent interview that they’re working on the next Beatles project, and they’re “sort of going backwards from a mid point.” shows.acast.com/three-in-a-bar/episodes/76-sam-okellSo a “Revolver (Super Deluxe Edition)” might not be that far off. He also said there are re-issues to come.
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Post by Mopp on Jun 13, 2022 10:17:16 GMT -5
Is there a version of Revolver out there with session material, outtakes and live tracks ? I'd sell a major organ for one of those. Unless I missed it, which, frankly, is entirely possible these days. Sam Okell has said in a recent interview that they’re working on the next Beatles project, and they’re “sort of going backwards from a mid point.” shows.acast.com/three-in-a-bar/episodes/76-sam-okellSo a “Revolver (Super Deluxe Edition)” might not be that far off. He also said there are re-issues to come. I'm eager to see what sort of digital wizardry they'll use to make Revolver sound good in stereo.
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