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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 14:26:12 GMT -5
It was a big deal when it was released, but the boxset and multitude of fanmixes since have largely rendered it irrelevant now. SMiLE AD and AlternateBWPS were my go-to SMiLE experiences until I made my own using the boxset as a source. And if push comes to shove, I'd even prefer listening to the old Purple Chick and Mok SMiLE mixes (even tho they use the grainy bootleg recordings as sources) as opposed to BWPS itself. The old 60s recordings are just so much better.
While it's not as terribly produced as Brian's other solo stuff, it still sounds too clean and sterilized. The older recordings had an air of mystery about them. Despite the upbeat name, there was a certain melancholy and a haunting quality which makes them timeless. BWPS seems whitewashed, like all the psychedelia and alternate spirituality of the '66 version has been stripped away for a family friendly product. It strikes me as a cynical, commoditized betrayal of the original's themes.
The tracklist has some serious flaws. Not just in the sense that "oh, it's not the same as my SMiLE mix!" But I mean really--you open up with all the unfinished snippets like Barnyard right out the gate which is bound to seem jarring to new listeners. The second suite is perfect, but then that mood-killing hard cut from Surf's Up to IIGS and Vega-Tables kills it. From then on, each successive song has a completely new sound and emotion to the one before it, so it doesn't let the momentum build naturally. By the time it's over you feel exhausted.
I think it was important in terms of Brian regaining his confidence and the feather in his career's cap, so to speak. It gives every biography or biopic (except Love and Mercy for some bizarre reason) the perfect triumph and resolution, that he finally conquered the embodiment of his demons. But for me, that's all that really holds up about it.
7, and that's mostly for the sentimentality of what it represents and being the first officially released version of the album.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 13:21:05 GMT -5
It was a big deal when it was released, but the boxset and multitude of fanmixes since have largely rendered it irrelevant now. SMiLE AD and AlternateBWPS were my go-to SMiLE experiences until I made my own using the boxset as a source. And if push comes to shove, I'd even prefer listening to the old Purple Chick and Mok SMiLE mixes (even tho they use the grainy bootleg recordings as sources) as opposed to BWPS itself. The old 60s recordings are just so much better. While it's not as terribly produced as Brian's other solo stuff, it still sounds too clean and sterilized. The older recordings had an air of mystery about them. Despite the upbeat name, there was a certain melancholy and a haunting quality which makes them timeless. BWPS seems whitewashed, like all the psychedelia and alternate spirituality of the '66 version has been stripped away for a family friendly product. It strikes me as a cynical, commoditized betrayal of the original's themes. The tracklist has some serious flaws. Not just in the sense that "oh, it's not the same as my SMiLE mix!" But I mean really--you open up with all the unfinished snippets like Barnyard right out the gate which is bound to seem jarring to new listeners. The second suite is perfect, but then that mood-killing hard cut from Surf's Up to IIGS and Vega-Tables kills it. From then on, each successive song has a completely new sound and emotion to the one before it, so it doesn't let the momentum build naturally. By the time it's over you feel exhausted. I think it was important in terms of Brian regaining his confidence and the feather in his career's cap, so to speak. It gives every biography or biopic (except Love and Mercy for some bizarre reason) the perfect triumph and resolution, that he finally conquered the embodiment of his demons. But for me, that's all that really holds up about it. 7, and that's mostly for the sentimentality of what it represents and being the first officially released version of the album. Cassandra, I agree entirely with what you say (the bit in bold type excepted). But my SMiLE history, such as it is, is nothing like yours! I think I must be the only person on the planet who hadn't heard a bootleg SMiLE mix before BWPS was released. Oh I was acquainted with the tracks included on the GV box set and I'd heard some random SMiLE sessions. But that was all. For a while after buying it, I was of the unshakeable opinion that "this was it". As if Brian had given fans these wonderful songs to do what they liked with but now he was taking them back. They were his again--and in this order. There was so much of BWPS that I'd never heard before and that was what stole my heart for a while. I rejected the idea of personal SMiLE mixes as being presumptuous and downright disrespectful. After all, Brian had spoken. But then I started having doubts. The sound was too trebly, and the bootlegs sessions I heard had these booming bass lines that just weren't there in BWPS. Combined with the fact that the first performance as filmed in Beautiful Dreamer seemed more like a circus than a concert. I began cautiously investigating personal SMiLE mixes and found I actually enjoyed them. Then I discovered your fan mixes. I can't remember if I heard the Dumb Angel Olorin Edition or Romestamo Cut first--the latter was my mix of choice for a while, until I heard Aquarian SMiLE, sans "Good Vibrations" (whose inclusion as the "romp home" in BWPS had never struck me as satisfactory). And I've stayed with it ever since. But I digress. Your last two paragraphs sum it up for me perfectly. I'll join you in giving it a 7.
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Post by kds on Jan 7, 2019 13:31:26 GMT -5
I went back and forth with this, trying to decide between a six or seven, but I'll round up to seven.
Mostly, before even discussing one note of music, it's an important album as Brian Wilson, after 37 years, released Smile. Was the 2004 version just as he initially imagined in 1967? We'll never really know for certain. But, this is what we have.
Now, I've said this before, I do not think Smile is a masterpiece. I think Smile has some masterful moments on it, most notably the sequence from Cabinessence through Surf's Up. However, stuff like Barnyard, I'm in Great Shape, and Do You Like Worms just hold little to no appeal. And then, there's the perplexingly popular Vega Tables.
Also, the Beach Boys Smile Sessions soft of takes the wind out of the sails of this release. You have Brian is top vocal form singing with The Beach Boys versus Brian in 2004 with his band. Good as they may be, those 1960s vocals cannot be beat. And I think the additional VDP lyrics in the 2004 are pretty good (I don't think he's that great of a lyricist to begin with). I actually prefer the incomplete versions of Look and CITFOTM to these. And the less said about the original lyrics to Good Vibrations the better.
7
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 2:38:38 GMT -5
Cassandra, I agree entirely with what you say (the bit in bold type excepted). But my SMiLE history, such as it is, is nothing like yours! I think I must be the only person on the planet who hadn't heard a bootleg SMiLE mix before BWPS was released. Oh I was acquainted with the tracks included on the GV box set and I'd heard some random SMiLE sessions. But that was all. For a while after buying it, I was of the unshakeable opinion that "this was it". As if Brian had given fans these wonderful songs to do what they liked with but now he was taking them back. They were his again--and in this order. There was so much of BWPS that I'd never heard before and that was what stole my heart for a while. I rejected the idea of personal SMiLE mixes as being presumptuous and downright disrespectful. After all, Brian had spoken. But then I started having doubts. The sound was too trebly, and the bootlegs sessions I heard had these booming bass lines that just weren't there in BWPS. Combined with the fact that the first performance as filmed in Beautiful Dreamer seemed more like a circus than a concert. I began cautiously investigating personal SMiLE mixes and found I actually enjoyed them. Then I discovered your fan mixes. I can't remember if I heard the Dumb Angel Olorin Edition or Romestamo Cut first--the latter was my mix of choice for a while, until I heard Aquarian SMiLE, sans "Good Vibrations" (whose inclusion as the "romp home" in BWPS had never struck me as satisfactory). And I've stayed with it ever since. But I digress. Your last two paragraphs sum it up for me perfectly. I'll join you in giving it a 7. Yeah, my order was Smiley Smile sometime around '07-'08. As I've often said, I was so underwhelmed it killed my interest in tracking down SMiLE music for years. In hindsight though, I wonder whether that was for the better or not. Maybe I wasn't ready for SMiLE just yet, or maybe I could have gotten a head-start on discovering psychedelic music, the counterculture and went into college more worldly as a result. Then in early '11 I heard some unnamed bootleg and/or fanmix on YouTube. This was a strange collection that used strange titles for a lot of the tracks: George Fell was called "Armstrong," I Wanna Be Around was called "A Trip to Town" and there were a few more like that. It included Wild Honey, tho the uploader admitted in the video description that he only put it there due to personal preference. I still to this day don't know the name of this collection, but it was my fabled intro to SMiLE proper. Almost immediately after, I heard BWPS. I admit that at the time, I felt like you did. I didn't question the three suite structure or general track order at all--as you say, Brian had spoken. I was so awestruck by the music that I was happy to hear it in any sequence. While I enjoyed BWPS okay, even then when all fanmixes relied on grainy bootlegs I still preferred the original sessions. Purple Chick was my favorite, followed closely by Mok. These and the vast majority of other fanmixes I was aware of at the time all followed the 3-suite structure, so its supremacy remained unquestioned in my mind. There were a few others like SMiLE 3971 (which mashed the '67 and '04 versions together) and Project Cadmus (I could be misremembering the name) which used an original sequence, included Diamond Head, and was meant to be SMiLE as if it had been completed in '72. But I never really liked this as much--no offense to the creators. Again, at the time, anything beyond the 3-suite structure was unfathomable to me. My first two mixes (Metroid Mix and Mujan Remix) were made in the Summer of '11 and December '11 respectively. They also followed the 3-suite structure. This was a great time to be a fan because there seemed to be an explosion of new mixes. As I said earlier, SMiLE AD and AlternateBWPS became my new favorites that weren't my own. It was only around the Summer of '13 that I thought to venture outside that BWPS mold. At the time I was thinking of working on a collection of 4 mixes I was going to make using different structures: a 2-suite, 1-suite (where everything would be linked by Heroes segments) and some others I never really put much thought into. I decided to work on the 2-suite first, and as I did so suddenly everything just clicked with me. I realized how much better this sounded, I could acknowledge the faults I'd always had with the BWPS/TSS framework, and I've been a firm believer in its authenticity ever since. The details have changed over the next 4 mixes from Reflections to Romestamo but I always kept that 2-suite foundation. Since then, I still listen to new mixes I see pop up on here/PSF and Smiley Smile. Several of them I've really enjoyed, but as much as I appreciate the work and craft, they often just don't click with me. I've found the SMiLE that works for me, and anything else is interesting enough but just not something I can get into in the same way. I've always said I want to try a 1-suite/"everything is Heroes and Villains!" mix at some point but I've never gotten the drive or inspiration to do so largely because I know I'd be forcing it and I've already found what I consider to be the best way. I apologize for writing a novel, but anyway that was my experience with SMiLE fanmixes and my change in preferences regarding sequencing/framework.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 4:07:17 GMT -5
I apologize for writing a novel, Please don't! Your SMiLE posts are a very important part of any forum--and of the SMiLE story in general.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 4:10:29 GMT -5
Thanks, jk I always appreciate hearing what you have to say on the matter as well!
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 8, 2019 8:54:11 GMT -5
It was a big deal when it was released, but the boxset and multitude of fanmixes since have largely rendered it irrelevant now. SMiLE AD and AlternateBWPS were my go-to SMiLE experiences until I made my own using the boxset as a source. And if push comes to shove, I'd even prefer listening to the old Purple Chick and Mok SMiLE mixes (even tho they use the grainy bootleg recordings as sources) as opposed to BWPS itself. The old 60s recordings are just so much better. While it's not as terribly produced as Brian's other solo stuff, it still sounds too clean and sterilized. The older recordings had an air of mystery about them. Despite the upbeat name, there was a certain melancholy and a haunting quality which makes them timeless. BWPS seems whitewashed, like all the psychedelia and alternate spirituality of the '66 version has been stripped away for a family friendly product. It strikes me as a cynical, commoditized betrayal of the original's themes. The tracklist has some serious flaws. Not just in the sense that "oh, it's not the same as my SMiLE mix!" But I mean really--you open up with all the unfinished snippets like Barnyard right out the gate which is bound to seem jarring to new listeners. The second suite is perfect, but then that mood-killing hard cut from Surf's Up to IIGS and Vega-Tables kills it. From then on, each successive song has a completely new sound and emotion to the one before it, so it doesn't let the momentum build naturally. By the time it's over you feel exhausted. I think it was important in terms of Brian regaining his confidence and the feather in his career's cap, so to speak. It gives every biography or biopic (except Love and Mercy for some bizarre reason) the perfect triumph and resolution, that he finally conquered the embodiment of his demons. But for me, that's all that really holds up about it. 7, and that's mostly for the sentimentality of what it represents and being the first officially released version of the album. No - I don't agree with this. I find it is ridiculous and dismissive. It was not irrelevant to wait for tracks for decades. When I saw Brian do this Live (and bought the DVD/CD) I knew the music. I had those tracks and for years - because I had the Box Set. People who buy box sets are generally geeks (big fans) who want all the minutiae. And who look at it as a corpus of work - that most regular fans would not even be bothered with. And, I count myself among those who would buy a Box set - to get any tracks I could. I want to see that entire corpus - including out-takes and session tracks. Most people are not running out to buy out-takes in a Box Set. They are content to have whatever is released, periodically and officially. We can agree to disagree. A 10 from me - Brian lived to tell his story!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 11:08:31 GMT -5
You know, when I: go out of my way to tell at least one person on every thread for personal reviews/rankings that their opinion is wrong in some way, or call a young person who's passionate about the future and trying to make their government better disturbing, or state that anyone who has a different outlook from me must have been brainwashed by "socialist" college professors ...then you can call me ridiculous and dismissive. It's okay though, we'll agree to disagree
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 8, 2019 11:27:33 GMT -5
You know, when I: go out of my way to tell at least one person on every thread for personal reviews/rankings that their opinion is wrong in some way, or call a young person who's passionate about the future and trying to make their government better disturbing, or state that anyone who has a different outlook from me must have been brainwashed by "socialist" college professors ...then you can call me ridiculous and dismissive. It's okay though, we'll agree to disagree Mujan - when this board was put together-many (I will speak for myself) I hoped that it was a clean slate - free from whatever differences, whether musical, philosophical or political were left behind. Sure, some stuff was lost - mostly the photos and actual articles that some had worked really hard to scan and share and have to re-do that work. So clean slate for me, and how I acted upon it - I did not post in the politics threads despite my keen interest for that reason. Clearly this is not the case. I do believe (and college-university demographics have borne this out) that there is an imbalance of political parties on faculties and now most lean left. Most of my adult life I have been in many college-university settings doing post-grad work while teaching and raising a family. Faculty make up and demographics - I know. You do know Smile quite well. However, not the other stuff as well and, some of your written observations (by your own admission) are based on one or two listens - as though you were brought to the recordings kicking-and-screaming (because it does not measure up to your standard of quality of Smile tracks) when some others on the forum have listened to these other tracks hundreds (maybe thousands) of times. Doesn't make the opinion better or worse, but, it is more informed. I do think writing on tracks requires many listens. You are lucky to have been born at a time when you could access this material. Most of the rest of us waited patiently for decades. Guess that is why some of us are so elated with some of the new-old releases. And it (those newly released tracks as a body of work) is never irrelevant to many of us. This forum is a clean slate, I hope.
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Post by Vale on Jan 8, 2019 11:57:47 GMT -5
It was a big deal when it was released, but the boxset and multitude of fanmixes since have largely rendered it irrelevant now. SMiLE AD and AlternateBWPS were my go-to SMiLE experiences until I made my own using the boxset as a source. And if push comes to shove, I'd even prefer listening to the old Purple Chick and Mok SMiLE mixes (even tho they use the grainy bootleg recordings as sources) as opposed to BWPS itself. The old 60s recordings are just so much better. No offense but I don't agree with this, I think it's not 'politically correct' to call it irrelevant. You have to consider its release in 2004, there was no 'official' boxset sessions at that time. Of course when it came out there where a lot of expectations on it and it was the first official release of the SMiLE thing as an album. I'm not a fan mixes lover (which I respect), I prefer the mixes or the cuts given by the engineers and people that worked on the sessions since the 60s that were 'around'. If you saw the documentary "A Beautiful Dreamer" you will not have not noticed the way in which Brian faced the thing, to see him in private moments on the couch, with his eyes closed while the others tried to involve him ... I can only imagine what was going through his mind, his fears, the his demons, the voices ... so we have to consider all of this. This is why my vote is a 10.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 12:03:27 GMT -5
Mujan - when this board was put together-many (I will speak for myself) I hoped that it was a clean slate - free from whatever differences, whether musical, philosophical or political were left behind. Sure, some stuff was lost - mostly the photos and actual articles that some had worked really hard to scan and share. So clean slate for me and how I acted upon it - I did not post in the politics threads despite my keen interest for that reason. Clearly this is not the case. I do believe (and college-university demographics have borne this out) that there is an imbalance of political parties on faculties and now most lean left. Most of my adult life I have been in many college-university settings doing post-grad work while teaching and raising a family. Faculty make up and demographics - I know. I thought so as well--which is why I didn't immediately re-block you and why I decided to only post one single, non-policy/current events thread in the political board. But if you're going to insult me again for having opinions which differ from your own, I am going to call you out for it. I don't care if we disagree, but when you tell me I'm brainwashed and disturbing one month and then "ridiculous and dismissive" in another over a very minor difference of rating on an album, it makes me feel like I'm being belittled for not fitting into a mold. Disagreements can be the basis of some fascinating discussions but not if you're going to condescend to me in the process of doing so. I don't think that's asking much at all. I do. I resent you putting me back into the mold of "the SMiLE girl" again though. It's the reason why I originally came to these forums but since leaving SS I've tried to branch out more and not make it the only thing about my identity around here. Hence why I share my thoughts on all difference kinds of topics these days, from Brian's solo career to political science to a Leni Loud fanfic I happen to be reading. Unfortunately most of it has been erased but in PSF I tried to talk about all kinds of different music from various artists and genres. In any case, this part of your reply I find to be worthy of your own complaint: "ridiculous and dismissive" too. You assume I know nothing whatsoever about their other material just because I don't talk about it as much and/or because I'm younger than you. If you can't understand how condescending that feels to be on the receiving end of, then this would be yet another wasted conversation trying to get thru to you. I'll thank you not to make assumptions about why or under what emotional state I've listened to their other albums. The vast majority of their work I discovered before SMiLE, or after but was enthusiastic to do so. Believe it or not, I am capable of liking more than just that one album, you know. And I kind of resent being thought of that way, as if there are no other albums I'm "qualified" to talk about, much less other subject matter. There are some albums in the catalog I'm not as enthusiastic to get around to checking out because of their reputation, but I do so because I want to see what else my favorite band has done not because there's a gun to my head. Listening to an album "thousands of times" doesn't make you any more qualified to offer your opinion; it doesn't make you some super-informed guru on the music. You might have more personal experiences with it, but besides maybe looking up more behind the scenes trivia or what have you, the music is the music. And part of what's supposed to be interesting about the review threads is hearing what people from vastly different backgrounds thought, hearing at different stages of their life and their various unique reactions. You don't get to consistently browbeat everyone for not being good enough fans just because they discovered something in a different way than you. You don't get to make holier than thou remarks at other people for not rating it as high as you. I don't find that kind of behavior more informed, I find it to be grandstanding, making a show of being a "better" fan than others. I appreciate that you had to wait longer to get a release of this material than I did. Doesn't mean you have a monopoly on loving it as much as I do. Doesn't mean that loving it more for its scarcity is a more informed opinion either--I wouldn't but someone else might make a case it clouds your ability to judge it objectively. Plus, I don't see anyone else except you be above pointing out the flaws in a review despite appreciating the music. That's all I have to say at the moment. I would like for this forum to be a clean slate too, but not if I'm going to be looked down upon for my age, or have condemnations thrown at me for not rating something high enough for your liking. That's not asking much.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 12:08:59 GMT -5
It was a big deal when it was released, but the boxset and multitude of fanmixes since have largely rendered it irrelevant now. SMiLE AD and AlternateBWPS were my go-to SMiLE experiences until I made my own using the boxset as a source. And if push comes to shove, I'd even prefer listening to the old Purple Chick and Mok SMiLE mixes (even tho they use the grainy bootleg recordings as sources) as opposed to BWPS itself. The old 60s recordings are just so much better. No offense but I don't agree with this, I think it's not 'politically correct' to call it irrelevant. You have to consider its release in 2004, there was no 'official' boxset sessions at that time. Of course when it came out there where a lot of expectations on it and it was the first official release of the SMiLE thing as an album. I'm not a fan mixes lover (which I respect), I prefer the mixes or the cuts given by the engineers and people that worked on the sessions since the 60s that were 'around'. If you saw the documentary "A Beautiful Dreamer" you will not have not noticed the way in which Brian faced the thing, to see him in private moments on the couch, with his eyes closed while the others tried to involve him ... I can only imagine what was going through his mind, his fears, the his demons, the voices ... so we have to consider all of this. This is why my vote is a 10. Or maybe you have to consider how it stands up over time, as opposed to being locked into that one moment forever. It's okay to take in the context of when it was released as well, but for myself when I review things I look at it from "how does this hold up now" as opposed to reliving the moment it came out. While I'm very sympathetic to what Brian went through as well, I don't think it's right to grade on *too* big of a curve just because he's suffered a lot. I don't think it's disrespectful to have appreciation for something like that, yet still grading the music more objectively overall.
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Post by kds on Jan 8, 2019 12:20:00 GMT -5
It was a big deal when it was released, but the boxset and multitude of fanmixes since have largely rendered it irrelevant now. SMiLE AD and AlternateBWPS were my go-to SMiLE experiences until I made my own using the boxset as a source. And if push comes to shove, I'd even prefer listening to the old Purple Chick and Mok SMiLE mixes (even tho they use the grainy bootleg recordings as sources) as opposed to BWPS itself. The old 60s recordings are just so much better. No offense but I don't agree with this, I think it's not 'politically correct' to call it irrelevant. You have to consider its release in 2004, there was no 'official' boxset sessions at that time. Of course when it came out there where a lot of expectations on it and it was the first official release of the SMiLE thing as an album. I'm not a fan mixes lover (which I respect), I prefer the mixes or the cuts given by the engineers and people that worked on the sessions since the 60s that were 'around'. If you saw the documentary "A Beautiful Dreamer" you will not have not noticed the way in which Brian faced the thing, to see him in private moments on the couch, with his eyes closed while the others tried to involve him ... I can only imagine what was going through his mind, his fears, the his demons, the voices ... so we have to consider all of this. This is why my vote is a 10. @iluvleniloud and I each acknowledged that the 2004 Smile performances and release were massively important. But I think it's a fair assessment that the 2011 Smile Sessions has sort of rendered Brian's version a bit obsolete. And I think that's being said while still showing respect for what happened in 2004. After all, the 2004 did provide the template for the 2011 release.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 12:29:31 GMT -5
@iluvleniloud and I each acknowledged that the 2004 Smile performances and release were massively important. But I think it's a fair assessment that the 2011 Smile Sessions has sort of rendered Brian's version a bit obsolete. And I think that's being said while still showing respect for what happened in 2004. After all, the 2004 did provide the template for the 2011 release. Thank you, kds. I thought my opening line and last paragraph were enough to get across that I did appreciate what a huge deal it was when it came out, but I guess nothing short of a perfect 10 rating is considered respectful enough to some people. I forgot to mention it in my reply to Vale, but for whatever it's worth I did see Beautiful Dreamer. Similar to BWPS, I was awestruck by it at first, but over time I came to view it more objectively and noticed some of the flaws. It's a good documentary but I feel like it paints a skewed picture of what the sessions were like. It's understandable why it was done, but I feel like it takes too rosey of a picture of Brian and his friends while not giving the other Beach Boys a chance to weigh in very much. I don't know if he was offered an interview and turned it down, but Brian literally lists Mike as the primary reason SMiLE didn't come out and he's not given the opportunity to defend himself. In any case, I think the whole story is more of a shade of gray and that documentary, while entertaining and informative, strayed too far to one side for my tastes.
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 8, 2019 13:22:37 GMT -5
Mujan - when this board was put together-many (I will speak for myself) I hoped that it was a clean slate - free from whatever differences, whether musical, philosophical or political were left behind. Sure, some stuff was lost - mostly the photos and actual articles that some had worked really hard to scan and share. So clean slate for me and how I acted upon it - I did not post in the politics threads despite my keen interest for that reason. Clearly this is not the case. I do believe (and college-university demographics have borne this out) that there is an imbalance of political parties on faculties and now most lean left. Most of my adult life I have been in many college-university settings doing post-grad work while teaching and raising a family. Faculty make up and demographics - I know. I thought so as well--which is why I didn't immediately re-block you and why I decided to only post one single, non-policy/current events thread in the political board. But if you're going to insult me again for having opinions which differ from your own, I am going to call you out for it. I don't care if we disagree, but when you tell me I'm brainwashed and disturbing one month and then "ridiculous and dismissive" in another over a very minor difference of rating on an album, it makes me feel like I'm being belittled for not fitting into a mold. Disagreements can be the basis of some fascinating discussions but not if you're going to condescend to me in the process of doing so. I don't think that's asking much at all. I do. I resent you putting me back into the mold of "the SMiLE girl" again though. It's the reason why I originally came to these forums but since leaving SS I've tried to branch out more and not make it the only thing about my identity around here. Hence why I share my thoughts on all difference kinds of topics these days, from Brian's solo career to political science to a Leni Loud fanfic I happen to be reading. Unfortunately most of it has been erased but in PSF I tried to talk about all kinds of different music from various artists and genres. In any case, this part of your reply I find to be worthy of your own complaint: "ridiculous and dismissive" too. You assume I know nothing whatsoever about their other material just because I don't talk about it as much and/or because I'm younger than you. If you can't understand how condescending that feels to be on the receiving end of, then this would be yet another wasted conversation trying to get thru to you. I'll thank you not to make assumptions about why or under what emotional state I've listened to their other albums. The vast majority of their work I discovered before SMiLE, or after but was enthusiastic to do so. Believe it or not, I am capable of liking more than just that one album, you know. And I kind of resent being thought of that way, as if there are no other albums I'm "qualified" to talk about, much less other subject matter. There are some albums in the catalog I'm not as enthusiastic to get around to checking out because of their reputation, but I do so because I want to see what else my favorite band has done not because there's a gun to my head. Listening to an album "thousands of times" doesn't make you any more qualified to offer your opinion; it doesn't make you some super-informed guru on the music. You might have more personal experiences with it, but besides maybe looking up more behind the scenes trivia or what have you, the music is the music. And part of what's supposed to be interesting about the review threads is hearing what people from vastly different backgrounds thought, hearing at different stages of their life and their various unique reactions. You don't get to consistently browbeat everyone for not being good enough fans just because they discovered something in a different way than you. You don't get to make holier than thou remarks at other people for not rating it as high as you. I don't find that kind of behavior more informed, I find it to be grandstanding, making a show of being a "better" fan than others. I appreciate that you had to wait longer to get a release of this material than I did. Doesn't mean you have a monopoly on loving it as much as I do. Doesn't mean that loving it more for its scarcity is a more informed opinion either--I wouldn't but someone else might make a case it clouds your ability to judge it objectively. Plus, I don't see anyone else except you be above pointing out the flaws in a review despite appreciating the music. That's all I have to say at the moment. I would like for this forum to be a clean slate too, but not if I'm going to be looked down upon for my age, or have condemnations thrown at me for not rating something high enough for your liking. That's not asking much. Did I call you brainwashed? Did I call you the Smile girl? It looks like poetic license. I do get to comment if you have made an admission that you just "got around" to listening to an album for the first or second time. If you have worked your way beyond Smile, then bravo! I did not give you a rep as a Smile girl. You "hold yourself out" as a Smile expert. I am not challenging that. Fine, by me if you have done all this research. Go for it if it is your thing. And, I was lucky to get it in very small doses over a very long period of time. In the context of the times, it worked for many. But judging art and music is not a science, it is an art, which is subjective, and not subject to a scientific method. The technology used might be challenged but not the element of creativity. *Just as an aside - I did not appreciate being hollered at, in the Surf's Up thread as a "boomer who did nothing" about "climate change" which had not one thing to do with anything germane. So, for example there was all this policy blather about a "hole in the ozone" and no one should go out in the sun. People became afraid of the sun. Who got rich? The chemical companies who made sunscreen and pretty unregulated for that matter. And, clothing makers who have some sunblock in their fabrics. Now, people are Vitamin D deficient. No one every heard of testing Vitamin D levels before these policies. It was just the theory of the day as it turns out. Some sun is good for you, as it turns out. Then we moved on to pollution (which I don't disagree with) - which later became "global warming" which made a lot of industry people rich. Then the rhetoric was not "global warming" (because of all the cold winters) - so it became "climate change." So, the extremism of policies that change like the wind and financially enrich certain industry people (which I do know something about, having attended seminars in environmental work, in legal work groups) and cap-and-trade policies - which in my opinion, is like trading monopoly money, for countries who do not pollute, to trade "credits" to enable pollution, with those who do, I find it a farce. (You have no idea what anyone's background is.) Is it a "hole in the ozone" or is it "climate change?" And is it "science," or is it policy written by special interest groups that they get members of congress to approve by lobbying them? Is it the competing gas companies looking to put the oil companies out of business? Healthy skepticism can be helpful. Looking at research from many sources can be helpful. So what does this have to do with Surf's Up? "Don't Go Near the Water" - a song which is about pollution. It is "cautionary" as I see it telling people not to pollute. It is not blaming-shaming the prior generation. Blaming-shaming does not work. The blaming-shaming tone was what was objectionable. (End of this - maybe because it might not not belong here. And I apologize in advance. )
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 14:00:37 GMT -5
Did I call you brainwashed? Did I call you the Smile girl? It looks like poetic license. I do get to comment if you have made an admission that you just "got around" to listening to an album for the first or second time. Yes, you did call me brainwashed. It was in PSF's now destroyed political forum. I don't know if you honestly don't remember or you're playing dumb to save face. As for "SMiLE girl," no not exactly but you inferred that the reason I knock off stars when reviewing other albums is simply because "it's not SMiLE" and that I don't like listening to other BB albums. Not so much poetic license as calling a spade a spade. What on earth difference does it make whether I heard an album once or a thousand times? I heard it and I get to offer my opinion. You don't get to bully me just because I haven't heard it as often as you. That's elitism, nothing more and nothing less. I left SS largely for that reason, (people bullying me for not reading LLVS yet) and if I'm going to be treated that way here as well then I'd rather not waste my time. Which is why I don't understand why you feel the need to "correct" multiple people's ratings in many of these review threads. And why I don't understand your taking issue with how often a person has heard an album just so you can discredit their OPINION. Okay, A) I wasn't even addressing that remark to you. I was using the idea of climate change as an example of why young people standing up is important, in contrast to the message of SDT. B) This is not the thread to discuss this. If you have a problem with what I said in my review of SU, say so in the relevant thread. C) You're conflating multiple issues. The hole in the ozone and climate change are separate problems. And D) I've long since learned not to waste my time debunking your insane conspiracy theories, so I am not going to address this incomprehensible raving with a rebuttal. You do this all time time, using strawman arguments rather than address what the other person is saying, changing the subject so we end up arguing about something completely different, posting broken URLs of unreliable sources. It's exhausting. Regarding the bolded portion of your text-- exactly. You don't know what my background is, yet you presume to lecture me on my opinions as well as make assumptions about my motivations and emotional states when I listen to new Beach Boy albums. You assume I was brainwashed to be leftwing in college. The list goes on. All the while you are unwilling or unable to apply your own standards and criticisms to yourself. Better question: what does this have to do with BWPS? Or with the issue of you belittling my opinion? Look...this isn't gonna work. I'm sure you're a nice person in your day to day life and I don't wish ill on you. But talking to you literally drives me crazy. I learned that lesson the hard way on PSF (it's a pity nobody coming across this exchange of ours will get to see the whole picture, but I think these last two responses serve as a pretty good example.) I also had the idea of a clean slate with a new forum, but realistically we are just going to fall into the same dynamic. So, once again, I'll do us both a favor and put you on ignore. I think both of us, as well as bystanders, will have a better forum experience that way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 15:15:39 GMT -5
At the risk of stirring the pot until it boils over....
BWPS can never be irrelevant to me as it contains two alterations that are among the most transcendent in Brian's catalog (for me anyway)..
The completed lyrics and vocal over "Do You Dig Worms?" turns a track that borders on irritating into something genuinely moving (under it's new title "Roll Plymouth Rock")
And the "Wonderful/Song For Children/Child Is The Father Of The Man" medley with finished lyrics is beyond poignant. The Beach Boys' original version suffers mightily by missing those lyrics and vocal sections.
What I wish had happened (although I understand why it didn't) was getting Al and Bruce, the two Beach Boys that still sound like younger men, overdub those lead parts on to the original tracks. That would've been spectacular and made the original tracks seem less bare. As it is, both BWPS and the SMILE Sessions are both compromised projects for similar reasons.
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 8, 2019 19:10:39 GMT -5
This is a new forum. Let's please leave what happened in Vegas, in PSF land. There is no way to access whatever conversations you have a problem with - so let's just please drop it. I have no desire to re-litigate/re-discuss whatever went on in a now defunct forum that is still bothering you. Good luck.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 22:24:05 GMT -5
At the risk of stirring the pot until it boils over.... BWPS can never be irrelevant to me as it contains two alterations that are among the most transcendent in Brian's catalog (for me anyway).. The completed lyrics and vocal over "Do You Dig Worms?" turns a track that borders on irritating into something genuinely moving (under it's new title "Roll Plymouth Rock") And the "Wonderful/Song For Children/Child Is The Father Of The Man" medley with finished lyrics is beyond poignant. The Beach Boys' original version suffers mightily by missing those lyrics and vocal sections. What I wish had happened (although I understand why it didn't) was getting Al and Bruce, the two Beach Boys that still sound like younger men, overdub those lead parts on to the original tracks. That would've been spectacular and made the original tracks seem less bare. As it is, both BWPS and the SMILE Sessions are both compromised projects for similar reasons. You're not stirring the pot, just sharing your opinion. There shouldn't be anything wrong with that. That's a good point I'd overlooked that this contains the only versions of some songs with lyrics. I don't understand why that wasn't done either. And this may not be the place to discuss it, I may be out of date in my understanding of the situation, but I don't understand why Al is often treated as the odd man out these days, touring wise.
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Post by Jason (The Real Beach Boy) on Apr 2, 2019 7:41:50 GMT -5
0. There's no point to it whatsoever, and the Smile box renders this one utterly worthless. If left as a live album, it would have merited a 7, perhaps.
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Post by jk on Feb 14, 2022 16:06:17 GMT -5
I wrote this during my previous sojourn at this forum and it still says what I want it to say: I think I must be the only person on the planet who hadn't heard a bootleg SMiLE mix before BWPS was released. Oh I was acquainted with the tracks included on the GV box set and I'd heard some random SMiLE sessions. But that was all. For a while after buying it, I was of the unshakeable opinion that "this was it". As if Brian had given fans these wonderful songs to do what they liked with but now he was taking them back. They were his again -- and in this order. There was so much of BWPS that I'd never heard before and that was what stole my heart for a while. I rejected the idea of personal SMiLE mixes as being presumptuous and downright disrespectful. After all, Brian had spoken. But then I started having doubts. The sound was too trebly, and the bootlegs sessions I heard had these booming bass lines that just weren't there in BWPS. Combined with the fact that the first performance as filmed in Beautiful Dreamer seemed more like a circus than a concert. I began cautiously investigating personal SMiLE mixes and found I actually enjoyed them. Then I discovered the OP's fan mixes. I can't remember if I heard the Dumb Angel Olorin Edition or Romestamo Cut first -- the latter was my mix of choice for a while, until I heard Aquarian SMiLE, sans "Good Vibrations" (whose inclusion as the "romp home" in BWPS had never struck me as satisfactory). And I've stayed with it ever since.
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Post by boogieboarder on Feb 15, 2022 19:40:38 GMT -5
It was an incredible day when Brian Wilson agreed to complete Smile for a live show, and eventually a tour and studio album. First generation fans like me waited 34 years for a completed Smile, and as each year went by, it seemed less and less likely. Watching Beautiful Dreamer, you can see it almost never got completed, again.
The Brian Wilson album is fresh, and not some exhumed rejected unfinished tapes, but dense, completed, with all vocals and instruments intact - and true to the 60s wrecking crew sound, used real orchestral instruments rather than a bunch of modern synths, as well. I’m glad Brian went into the studio and essentially recorded a studio version of the live show for posterity.
And when The Beach Boys Smile Sessions box set came out - far from making the Brian Wilson version obsolete - it, in my opinion, was a complete mess and proved just how unfinished the original tapes really were. I prefer the bootlegs, left unfinished, then the monstrosity of the attempt to present a Beach Boys version of a finished Smile album.
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Post by Mark on Feb 16, 2022 9:38:00 GMT -5
Was super cool to have Smile music arranged and performed for concert. And super cool to have a studio recording of that work.
BWPS will never be a ‘go to’ when I want to listen to Smile stuff but it’s nice to have to take me back to watching those first live shows in London.
I really like the new lyrics on holidays and look.
The second suite is amazing and wonderful into look / song for children still makes me smile so much now.
I agree that it feels overwhelming by the end and the sequencing isn’t ideal for me.
I’d give it a solid 8/10
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Post by Awesoman on Feb 19, 2022 14:34:10 GMT -5
Although the box set eclipsed this 2004 release, I still have a soft spot in my heart for it. The most frustrating thing about the original Beach Boys recordings is that they're incomplete; missing vocals and lyrics. The box set does its absolute best at giving us the most complete version possible of the album and is well done, but it left me wondering what could have been had they finished it proper.
With the BW version this is no longer an issue. Sure Brian's voice was a far cry from his prime, and some of the new lyrics could be a little wonky, but you finally got a true sense of what Brian was going for. I really loved how the music intertwined and linked with each other. It really made the whole experience really symphonic in execution.
But with that said I would agree that the studio version of this sounds a little too polished and clean. Which is why I prefer the live version of this album that made it to DVD. If you have a good DVD audio ripper you can put the concert on CD or DAP of your choice. The live performance is really the best way to experience this music.
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Post by dauber on Mar 29, 2022 10:19:56 GMT -5
A worthy follow-up to Gettin' In Over My Head.
10/10
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