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Post by Joshilyn Hoisington on Aug 9, 2021 18:56:47 GMT -5
It would have to be two different tracks panned L/R, because if it were the same track doubled, it would sound mono/more centered instead of the separated sound. It would sound like Duophonic or something if the levels and/or EQ were not quite the same. In Adam's theory, there would be a slight delay in the monitor playback reaching the microphone used for the overdub, creating a quasi-stereo effect (Duophonic recordings also use a delay, as well as EQ, to create their fake stereo effect). So the theory has to be, then, that it was an intentional effect? Even if it were, I cannot figure out technically how this could be done. In order for there to be an acoustically significant delay, the mic would have to be VERY distant from the speaker. Given Western 3 and/or Radio Recorders sizes, I don't think it could physically be placed far enough. That's what reverb chambers are for; where a live room such as Western 3 is largely set up to minimize early reflections and make things sound reasonably tight, a reverb chamber is set up for maximize early reflections and keep things live. If it comes down to it I could do the math to prove it, although it'd be a bit wonky because I don't know the precise densities of the studios treatments. Now -- as I said above, I would contend that we don't even get to that argument, because both sides of the stereo mix track sound equally tight and dry. There is no delay. As for the EQ argument that Adam is relying on, keep in mind that the board at Western 3 had very little EQ. Other studios similarly would have limited EQ. While they might have had some Pultecs or whatever, but I tend to think they were mostly used on entire mixes/mastering jobs rather than individual tracks. The board EQs were very limited; a 3 db cut at some set low frequency, and usually a 3 or 6 db boost at some set high frequency. Sunset Sound used little Fairchild EQs that were sort of hacked into the control surface - they weren't even available for individual tracks there, just the mix busses. Those did have variable frequencies. My point is, it would also be technically very difficult to make a basically identical Left and Right signal to sounds different enough to create any kind of stereo illusion. Audio just doesn't work that way. Thus, why duophonic sounds so bad.
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Post by Joshilyn Hoisington on Aug 9, 2021 19:22:53 GMT -5
Here's another attempt at an argument for the double tracked instruments from facts rather than from listening.
Does fiddling around with very subtle stereo effects seem like something Brian would do, as someone who was concerned only with mono? Likewise, does Chuck Britz or any engineer doing Brian's clean-up work seem likely to do this?
It would have to be something only done for the stereo mix; because collapsing a heavily EQed and slightly delayed track into mono would sound very, very bad.
So again, why do it?
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Post by donnylang on Aug 9, 2021 20:38:49 GMT -5
Hmm I still say it sounds too clean for this to be a possibility. The mono mix would reveal all kinds of artifacts if the track had been cut this way, but it’s clean and punchy.
I will say if anyone wants to talk about a track where IMO something like this may have happened and is audible, it would be “Girls on the Beach”. The track to me sounds like it has a lot of bleed, which suggests it’s possible they were overdubbing something with a speaker instead of headphones (or the headphones were very loud). You can hear this most notably in the very first drum fill at the end of the intro before the first verse.
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Post by donnylang on Aug 9, 2021 21:14:51 GMT -5
… I’m with Adam on the Survivors angle though. I’d put money on that after watching the video.
So- are we sure the CD/digital masters of the stereo mix of “No Go Showboat” was not moved slightly away from hard panning? I remember someone saying the stereo spread had been “helped” on the remasters, by moving each channel slightly toward the center. This might explain why we’re hearing a little of each channel in the other channel. On the original vinyl, this would not have been the case.
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Post by Joshilyn Hoisington on Aug 9, 2021 22:17:09 GMT -5
… I’m with Adam on the Survivors angle though. I’d put money on that after watching the video. So- are we sure the CD/digital masters of the stereo mix of “No Go Showboat” was not moved slightly away from hard panning? I remember someone saying the stereo spread had been “helped” on the remasters, by moving each channel slightly toward the center. This might explain why we’re hearing a little of each channel in the other channel. On the original vinyl, this would not have been the case. I think the assumption from all parties is that the CD masting narrowed the stereo field, yes.
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Post by WillJC on Aug 10, 2021 4:49:39 GMT -5
… I’m with Adam on the Survivors angle though. I’d put money on that after watching the video. But, the legs the theory stands on are: - A time constraint that isn't the most intense recording schedule they faced within those months (barring learning the songs before putting them to tape - but without evidence, or a recollection from one of the group to put that into perspective, I don't think that's a strong argument). - Drum overdubs that can't be drum overdubs. - A recording parallel with Pamela Jean that doesn't run parallel, and some complicated and hard to reconcile technical/creative hurdles to overcome with that to make some sort of hybrid band situation happen. And it would have to, as David remembers playing on all three of the theorised Survivors tracks - or at least two, if you forward the argument that Be True to Your School only means the single version. But still No Go Showboat and Spirit of America. And if not recorded, David's caveat is that he definitely learned those songs - but in the Survivors theory, he wouldn't have learned them at all, right? - Some pretty significant participation in the Beach Boys' story that none of the Survivors have ever actually claimed - and historically, they're individuals who haven't been shy about putting their places in history. If Dave Nolan were asked, and remembers doing such a thing (without the specifics being planted first), it would be worth considering. As it stands, I just don't think there's enough there. There's really only an assumption about how fast the band could or couldn't have worked in a window of time that isn't completely nailed down.
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Post by WillJC on Aug 10, 2021 5:05:40 GMT -5
So- are we sure the CD/digital masters of the stereo mix of “No Go Showboat” was not moved slightly away from hard panning? I remember someone saying the stereo spread had been “helped” on the remasters, by moving each channel slightly toward the center. This might explain why we’re hearing a little of each channel in the other channel. On the original vinyl, this would not have been the case. CD narrowing could have played a part, but reverb added to the mix is still a factor. If you go to Shut Down Volume 2 there are more obvious places to check. Take any song with a lead vocal hard panned to one ear on any version of the album (Don't Worry Baby, Warmth of the Sun), solo the opposite channel, and you'll hear the verb return from the vocal. That can't be headphone or monitor bleed, because the lead vocals were the last things to be recorded on each of those tracks. It sounds like what you hear with the traces of drums on the right of No Go Showboat. And in the case of Showboat, monitor bleed would also be a definite element in the instruments being doubled, and two layers of overdubbed vocals between the tracks.
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