petsite
Author/Historian/ Researcher 
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Post by petsite on May 15, 2021 22:52:06 GMT -5
I was wondering how many have the Past Masters versions of the Capitol LPs. I was so mad at myself when I found out they were FLAT TRANSFERS with no EQ or NR added to them. When I started to hunt them down in the mid 2000's (I had Smiley Smile since around 1998), they were expensive as hell. After the 1990 reissues came out, Midnight Records in NYC was selling the Past Masters for $10-11 per disc. But I had the new ones, who needed those. But I am glad some $200 later that I have them all. Just wish I had done it back then. PS-The PET SOUNDS CDs were from the same NR master as the 1990 CD and not from the flat transferred master.
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Post by Al S on May 16, 2021 0:38:23 GMT -5
I was wondering how many have the Past Masters versions of the Capitol LPs. I was so mad at myself when I found out they were FLAT TRANSFERS with no EQ or NR added to them. When I started to hunt them down in the mid 2000's (I had Smiley Smile since around 1998), they were expensive as hell. After the 1990 reissues came out, Midnight Records in NYC was selling the Past Masters for $10-11 per disc. But I had the new ones, who needed those. But I am glad some $200 later that I have them all. Just wish I had done it back then. PS-The PET SOUNDS CDs were from the same NR master as the 1990 CD and not from the flat transferred master.
I have a couple and have heard them all. Pretty good, although I’m not sure what makes a flat more desireable than a well mastered edition that complies with or potentially betters the original mastering notes. Eg, in my book, the Kevin Gray mastered AP series is the shit in relation to Digital media - eg, CD, SACD, and they aren’t flat. The Japanse PMs seem a bit redundant now. |
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petsite
Author/Historian/ Researcher
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Post by petsite on May 16, 2021 8:33:43 GMT -5
I was wondering how many have the Past Masters versions of the Capitol LPs. I was so mad at myself when I found out they were FLAT TRANSFERS with no EQ or NR added to them. When I started to hunt them down in the mid 2000's (I had Smiley Smile since around 1998), they were expensive as hell. After the 1990 reissues came out, Midnight Records in NYC was selling the Past Masters for $10-11 per disc. But I had the new ones, who needed those. But I am glad some $200 later that I have them all. Just wish I had done it back then. PS-The PET SOUNDS CDs were from the same NR master as the 1990 CD and not from the flat transferred master.
I have a couple and have heard them all. Pretty good, although I’m not sure what makes a flat more desireable than a well mastered edition that complies with or potentially betters the original mastering notes. Eg, in my book, the Kevin Gray mastered AP series is the shit in relation to Digital media - eg, CD, SACD, and they aren’t flat. The Japanse PMs seem a bit redundant now. I like having what is in essence a digital copy of the master tape. No added frills, just a clean copy of the master. I also found the following have that same flat transfer as well, and are cheaper than the Past Masters are to boot:
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Post by Mikie on May 16, 2021 10:47:20 GMT -5
I was wondering how many have the Past Masters versions of the Capitol LPs. I was so mad at myself when I found out they were FLAT TRANSFERS with no EQ or NR added to them. When I started to hunt them down in the mid 2000's (I had Smiley Smile since around 1998), they were expensive as hell. After the 1990 reissues came out, Midnight Records in NYC was selling the Past Masters for $10-11 per disc. But I had the new ones, who needed those. But I am glad some $200 later that I have them all. Just wish I had done it back then. PS-The PET SOUNDS CDs were from the same NR master as the 1990 CD and not from the flat transferred master.
Back around 2000, I ordered four of the SOT Unsurpassed CD’s from Midnight Records in New York. I’d pulled down quite a few things from them in the past. When I received them, they were CDR’s! They weren’t silver CD’s; they were copies of the originals and the artwork in the CD cases were done with a not-so-great color copier! I couldn’t believe these guys were trying to pawn off CDR’s to the general public! After that, I quit buying from Midnight and bought all my [unauthorized] original CD’s from a place in Singapore. |
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Post by Mikie on May 16, 2021 10:51:30 GMT -5
Back in March, I wrote this here:
"If I want to listen to the albums like that, I'll pull out the Japanese Past Masters recordings, which are supposedly flat transfers from the masters. With the exception of a few dropouts and warbles, those are the go-to if you don't want to hear any audio 'enhancements'."
Stephen Desper's COMMENT to Mikie: "I know a lot of people like the sound of Japanese LPs, but it's because the applied transfer-EQ tricks the brain into thinking the sound is clearer, when it is really just top end -heavy. There is no such thing as a flat transfer. (See the section in my book on reverse copies). Transfers loose information and add noise, which is why engineers re-EQ copies. You can't send an acetate mater to Japan, as time is of the essence. It has to be a transfer or copy made from the analog master tape. Therefore one generation removed from the original. To get closer to the original intent of the producer, look for US copies with the Artisan logo near the label, stamped in the vinyl. Or just listen to the needle drop section from my book. That is the definitive mastering (signed-off by Carl and myself) available and the only playback source with matrix resolution.
Most current Japanese LPs are made from digital transfers sent over the Internet, so although an LP, it's source is digital. With the exception of Sterling Sound in NYC, most all LP pressings from around 1970 and on are actually digital. No matter what the source and how "analog" pure you try to keep everything, the dirty little secret is that within the cutting lathe is a digital delay line. This digital delay replaces the advance head of earlier technology."
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petsite
Author/Historian/ Researcher
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Post by petsite on May 16, 2021 15:47:54 GMT -5
Of course these are copies of the master and not the master itself (except for the California Girls CD which was done at the Tower). But it is still as close as we can get to a straight copy of the master. When Toshiba-EMI requested copies to release as CDs, Capitol made Dolby A flat copies of the masters (forgetting to include the tracks they removed for the early 80's LPs to save money). So yes, it was down the food chain, but not that far. I would argue that making a copy of the master on a mid-80s DOLBY A reel to reel would be different than doing the same back in 1962-1968. The sound would be better on the more modern reel to reels with less loss. Yes their would be some, but we are still getting a copy of the master.
As far as your comments regarding Midnight Records, they were THE SHIT back in the 90s. Great place to find "rare" CDs. A little more than most stores, but they had the selection. But after the store got sold to new owners around 2000, the run was over. They filled orders with crap, AND several times to me they took my money and I got nothing. Had to call and call to get it back. The second time, I just called my credit card company and told them to not pay that amount. So sad. I remember always looking through the latest GOLDMINE mag for their ad. So much great stuff. Once they went online, I was always there.
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Post by jasonaustin on May 16, 2021 16:31:45 GMT -5
As far as your comments regarding Midnight Records, they were THE SHIT back in the 90s. Great place to find "rare" CDs. A little more than most stores, but they had the selection. But after the store got sold to new owners around 2000, the run was over. They filled orders with crap, AND several times to me they took my money and I got nothing. Had to call and call to get it back. The second time, I just called my credit card company and told them to not pay that amount. So sad. I remember always looking through the latest GOLDMINE mag for their ad. So much great stuff. Once they went online, I was always there. I've shared my Midnight Records story before elsewhere, but since you mentioned them... Right around 2000 or so I was getting heavily into the Moody Blues and could not find a copy of Caught Live +5 at any of the Chicago retail chains, so I placed an order through Midnight Records. Weeks and weeks went by with no CD arriving, so I picked up the phone and gave them a call. I'll never forget how rude the lady that answered the phone was-- she literally laughed at me when I asked for my money back and told me there was no way in hell they were going to give me a refund. I would get my product when I get it, IF they decided to ship it. At this point I lost it and we got into a screaming match over the phone. She laughed and dared me to call the Better Business Bureau. I called her a few choice words and hung up. The strange thing was, I actually did receive the CD a few weeks later (silver, not CD-R thank goodness) and went on with my life. A year or two later I read online that the company was raided by the Feds and put out of business. Couldn't have happened to a nicer group of people. |
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Post by Mikie on May 16, 2021 16:51:49 GMT -5
Midnight was great in the 80's and 90's. I looked forward to their new ads in Goldmine, then running over to the bank to get a money order and sending it from California to NYC via the US Postal Service. It seemed like it took forever for the package to arrive. My main source for "unofficial" CD's, then when I found out about Singapore and their reasonable prices and great customer service, they became my #1.
Then I heard in the mid-2000's the owner (who I found out later was a total prick) was prosecuted by the U.S. Attorney's office and RIAA for the sale of bootlegs. He said that Midnight was a collector's store and if he couldn't sell some bootlegs, he'd go out of business, which he did.
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Post by Al S on May 16, 2021 21:04:41 GMT -5
Of course these are copies of the master and not the master itself (except for the California Girls CD which was done at the Tower). But it is still as close as we can get to a straight copy of the master. When Toshiba-EMI requested copies to release as CDs, Capitol made Dolby A flat copies of the masters (forgetting to include the tracks they removed for the early 80's LPs to save money). So yes, it was down the food chain, but not that far. I would argue that making a copy of the master on a mid-80s DOLBY A reel to reel would be different than doing the same back in 1962-1968. The sound would be better on the more modern reel to reels with less loss. Yes their would be some, but we are still getting a copy of the master.
I would assume the Japanese Past Masters were probably from 1:1 tapes they were issued by EMI UK, used back in the day for the EAC sequenced reissues - as opposed to digital files. To my original point, having a flat transfer is not necessarily a desirable thing, as there may be things on the tape that need to be dealt with during cutting or transfer. Stephen makes a good point re the high end frequencies on many coloured Japanese masterings - I’ve noticed this especially on Beatles reissues. |
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petsite
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Post by petsite on May 16, 2021 22:05:59 GMT -5
Here is a little history of how the Past Masters were put together, according to Steve Hoffman after talking with one of the Toshiba EMI engineers.
THE TIMELINE:
1. Late 1970's-early '80's. Capitol REMOVES one or two songs from BB albums to save money on publishing hoping no one will notice. They usually remove the most pointless song (like "Denny's Drums") but in some cases they remove a gem like "In The Parking Lot". The songs are either stored at the end of the LP master reels or elsewhere.
2. 1986 or so, Toshiba, Japan orders BB copy tapes for their new CD series. They request TRUE STEREO or TRUE MONO only. At this time it was still an analog world so Toshiba requests Dolby A flat transfers.
3. Capitol studios make them Dolby A copies of master tapes BUT IN SOME CASES FORGET TO INCLUDE THE ONE OR TWO SONGS THAT WERE EDITED OUT OF THE MASTER REELS. Dips!
4. 1/2 year later Toshiba discovers that albums have 12 songs on them and the copy tapes have 10, they frantically cable Capitol for the missing songs. Capitol engineer just dubs stereo in all cases, that means FAKE STEREO in some cases. It never occurs to engineer to ask for mono when he hears fake stereo coming out of his speakers.
5. Toshiba engineers pull their hair out when they hear the replacement tapes in fake stereo but are out of time. They can't wait any longer and fold down the few songs in Duophonic to mono and hopes no one will notice, heh.
6. (Sidebar): PET SOUNDS. Toshiba tries to use the mono master dub but are prevented from doing so when Capitol sends them a digital remastering. Did some copies get out? I can't remember...
So, you see? Toshiba meant well but after a while they just gave up on Capitol. It never occurs to them to use their own VAULT TAPES FROM THE 1960's THAT ARE IN TRUE STEREO AND TRUE MONO. Sigh.
Nonetheless, the PASTMASTERS series of BB CD's is the only place to get un-EQ'd Beach Boys Capitol masters. So a couple are screwed up, on the whole if you can find them, grab them (except PET SOUNDS).
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petsite
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Post by petsite on May 16, 2021 22:23:11 GMT -5
It was Brad that pushed Capitol to release the BE TRUE TO YOUR SCHOOL LP to gather up the cuts left off of other LPs. Also, he reminded CAPITOL that the PARTY LP was out of print and got it re-released.
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Shawn
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Post by Shawn on May 17, 2021 10:12:24 GMT -5
And just a quick side note - the Past Masters series wasn’t exclusive to Beach boys albums, the series included other artists too. I forget if those titles were also flat transfers, need to look that up.
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Post by Al S on May 17, 2021 17:04:59 GMT -5
Here is a little history of how the Past Masters were put together, according to Steve Hoffman after talking with one of the Toshiba EMI engineers. THE TIMELINE: 1. Late 1970's-early '80's. Capitol REMOVES one or two songs from BB albums to save money on publishing hoping no one will notice. They usually remove the most pointless song (like "Denny's Drums") but in some cases they remove a gem like "In The Parking Lot". The songs are either stored at the end of the LP master reels or elsewhere. 2. 1986 or so, Toshiba, Japan orders BB copy tapes for their new CD series. They request TRUE STEREO or TRUE MONO only. At this time it was still an analog world so Toshiba requests Dolby A flat transfers. 3. Capitol studios make them Dolby A copies of master tapes BUT IN SOME CASES FORGET TO INCLUDE THE ONE OR TWO SONGS THAT WERE EDITED OUT OF THE MASTER REELS. Dips! 4. 1/2 year later Toshiba discovers that albums have 12 songs on them and the copy tapes have 10, they frantically cable Capitol for the missing songs. Capitol engineer just dubs stereo in all cases, that means FAKE STEREO in some cases. It never occurs to engineer to ask for mono when he hears fake stereo coming out of his speakers. 5. Toshiba engineers pull their hair out when they hear the replacement tapes in fake stereo but are out of time. They can't wait any longer and fold down the few songs in Duophonic to mono and hopes no one will notice, heh. 6. (Sidebar): PET SOUNDS. Toshiba tries to use the mono master dub but are prevented from doing so when Capitol sends them a digital remastering. Did some copies get out? I can't remember... So, you see? Toshiba meant well but after a while they just gave up on Capitol. It never occurs to them to use their own VAULT TAPES FROM THE 1960's THAT ARE IN TRUE STEREO AND TRUE MONO. Sigh. Nonetheless, the PASTMASTERS series of BB CD's is the only place to get un-EQ'd Beach Boys Capitol masters. So a couple are screwed up, on the whole if you can find them, grab them (except PET SOUNDS). Fascinating stuff, great info. I vaguely recall something about a Japanese Pet Sounds that got pulled really quickly because they didn’t have the green light, but may not be the PM edition. And weird they didn’t use their own archives - unless they’d trashed ‘em or similar. |
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Post by Mikie on May 17, 2021 18:02:56 GMT -5
Here is a little history of how the Past Masters were put together, according to Steve Hoffman after talking with one of the Toshiba EMI engineers. THE TIMELINE: 1. Late 1970's-early '80's. Capitol REMOVES one or two songs from BB albums to save money on publishing hoping no one will notice. They usually remove the most pointless song (like "Denny's Drums") but in some cases they remove a gem like "In The Parking Lot". The songs are either stored at the end of the LP master reels or elsewhere. 2. 1986 or so, Toshiba, Japan orders BB copy tapes for their new CD series. They request TRUE STEREO or TRUE MONO only. At this time it was still an analog world so Toshiba requests Dolby A flat transfers. 3. Capitol studios make them Dolby A copies of master tapes BUT IN SOME CASES FORGET TO INCLUDE THE ONE OR TWO SONGS THAT WERE EDITED OUT OF THE MASTER REELS. Dips! 4. 1/2 year later Toshiba discovers that albums have 12 songs on them and the copy tapes have 10, they frantically cable Capitol for the missing songs. Capitol engineer just dubs stereo in all cases, that means FAKE STEREO in some cases. It never occurs to engineer to ask for mono when he hears fake stereo coming out of his speakers. 5. Toshiba engineers pull their hair out when they hear the replacement tapes in fake stereo but are out of time. They can't wait any longer and fold down the few songs in Duophonic to mono and hopes no one will notice, heh. 6. (Sidebar): PET SOUNDS. Toshiba tries to use the mono master dub but are prevented from doing so when Capitol sends them a digital remastering. Did some copies get out? I can't remember... So, you see? Toshiba meant well but after a while they just gave up on Capitol. It never occurs to them to use their own VAULT TAPES FROM THE 1960's THAT ARE IN TRUE STEREO AND TRUE MONO. Sigh. Nonetheless, the PASTMASTERS series of BB CD's is the only place to get un-EQ'd Beach Boys Capitol masters. So a couple are screwed up, on the whole if you can find them, grab them (except PET SOUNDS). I vaguely recall something about a Japanese Pet Sounds that got pulled really quickly because they didn’t have the green light, but may not be the PM edition. Don't know how many of these made it to the record stores, but it was pulled from circulation. Pet Sounds original Japanese EMI pressing (Greenline 2800 version with bonus tracks, sealed with OBI strip)   |
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petsite
Author/Historian/ Researcher
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Post by petsite on May 17, 2021 22:52:35 GMT -5
I got that CD about 15 years back for $10. Love it.
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