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Post by Micha on Oct 3, 2023 14:24:10 GMT -5
And if you have ever read an article on yourself, you must already know that journalists just do get things wrong. They are unperfect beings like anybody else, us included. If I remember correctly, Seigel gets the name of the track wrong, claiming Brian said it would be "Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" instead of "..Cow". I think it is less probable it was named like that for a day or so and very likely that Seigel just got it wrong.
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Post by Al S on Oct 3, 2023 18:07:00 GMT -5
And if you have ever read an article on yourself, you must already know that journalists just do get things wrong. They are unperfect beings like anybody else, us included. If I remember correctly, Seigel gets the name of the track wrong, claiming Brian said it would be "Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" instead of "..Cow". I think it is less probable it was named like that for a day or so and very likely that Seigel just got it wrong. Well, in his words he was a member of the "Beach Boys marijuana-consumption squad"; thus, a recollection or two may have been a little blurred, man.
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Post by AGD on Oct 4, 2023 3:08:33 GMT -5
And if you have ever read an article on yourself, you must already know that journalists just do get things wrong. They are unperfect beings like anybody else, us included. If I remember correctly, Seigel gets the name of the track wrong, claiming Brian said it would be "Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" instead of "..Cow". I think it is less probable it was named like that for a day or so and very likely that Seigel just got it wrong. Given the AFM contract list the session as "The Elements (Fire)", and he was quoting Brian directly - "“Yeah,” said Brian on the way home, an acetate trial copy or “dub” of the tape in his hands, the red plastic fire helmet still on his head. “Yeah, I’m going to call this ‘Mrs. O’Leary’s Fire’ and I think it might just scare a whole lot of people.”" - I'd go with what he says. This may be starting another hare, but anyone have any idea when "Fire" was first referred to as "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow"?
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Post by Micha on Oct 4, 2023 7:25:55 GMT -5
And if you have ever read an article on yourself, you must already know that journalists just do get things wrong. They are unperfect beings like anybody else, us included. If I remember correctly, Seigel gets the name of the track wrong, claiming Brian said it would be "Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" instead of "..Cow". I think it is less probable it was named like that for a day or so and very likely that Seigel just got it wrong. Given the AFM contract list the session as "The Elements (Fire)", and he was quoting Brian directly - "“Yeah,” said Brian on the way home, an acetate trial copy or “dub” of the tape in his hands, the red plastic fire helmet still on his head. “Yeah, I’m going to call this ‘Mrs. O’Leary’s Fire’ and I think it might just scare a whole lot of people.”" - I'd go with what he says. This may be starting another hare, but anyone have any idea when "Fire" was first referred to as "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow"? Nearly 20 years ago I was interviewed in my home by a local newspaper reporter for a short article on me. And despite him taking notes and knowing me for about two years at the time, his articles featured quite a few inaccuracies. So unless I have reports that Seigel wrote down the title in the car right after Brian said it or had a dictaphone running (or has perfect memory), I will still stay convinced he mixed it up with the title "Fire" when he wrote it down from memory some time later that day. Seigel may have quoted Brian directly, but IMHO it is most likely he misquoted him. Even if Siegel was a top notch journalist, which he may have been, his (very important) article is not a holy scripture with the truth and nothing but the truth. And it is the only time that title was mentioned anywhere, so to me it is an error. Just like "Child Is Father To The Man".
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Post by bessieboporbach on Oct 4, 2023 9:29:00 GMT -5
I believe "Fire" was first referred to as "Mrs O'Leary's Cow" by members of Buffalo Springfield.
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Post by WillJC on Oct 4, 2023 9:36:13 GMT -5
And if you have ever read an article on yourself, you must already know that journalists just do get things wrong. They are unperfect beings like anybody else, us included. If I remember correctly, Seigel gets the name of the track wrong, claiming Brian said it would be "Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" instead of "..Cow". I think it is less probable it was named like that for a day or so and very likely that Seigel just got it wrong. Given the AFM contract list the session as "The Elements (Fire)", and he was quoting Brian directly - "“Yeah,” said Brian on the way home, an acetate trial copy or “dub” of the tape in his hands, the red plastic fire helmet still on his head. “Yeah, I’m going to call this ‘Mrs. O’Leary’s Fire’ and I think it might just scare a whole lot of people.”" - I'd go with what he says. This may be starting another hare, but anyone have any idea when "Fire" was first referred to as "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow"? Off the top of my head, the first time in print was the 1972 Melody Maker article about upcoming plans for Smile with a tracklist supplied by Carl. Does seem entirely plausible that it was referred to as both "Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" and then "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" off the record back then, as Brian changed his ideas day to day.
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Post by Mikie on Oct 4, 2023 10:04:55 GMT -5
Well, Brian had working titles for quite a few songs. This may have been one of them. I'd just go with what Brian said to Seigel as accurate and Seigel wrote it down right away or later misremembered what he thought he'd heard. I think Brian gave Siegel a working title at the time.
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Post by WillJC on Oct 4, 2023 10:09:39 GMT -5
Agree, don't see any reason to doubt it.
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alankard
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Post by alankard on Jan 11, 2024 13:57:17 GMT -5
AGD, is the topical question settled in your mind? If so, no need to read further.
************ ************
A newcomer's traipse through older threads reveals that back in 2019 Cam Mott posted links to some 1998 emails by Jules Siegel (EH thread: 'Jules Siegel's reply to David Anderle in "Smile Is Done"'). Per the email at second link in the lead post, Siegel stated:
"...the story started out as an assignment for the Saturday Evening Post for which I would have been paid more than many writers got for entire books had it been accepted. ...It took quite a bit of convincing to get the Saturday Evening Post to assign a story on the Beach Boys. ...The piece was rejected. I later sold it to New York ...and finally published it in the first issue of Cheetah, not to make myself important but to sell magazines."
So it's likely the bulk of the piece was written and shopped around months before autumn 1967. The lead paragraph, on the other hand, would be subject to change based on the editorial view of a particular publication's audience; in journalism, often the lead is key to the purpose. And as long as it squeaks in there by press time, a single paragraph can change up to the minute.
Building on refs to journalistic license made here, and considering that Siegel was both author and editor of the Cheetah story published c. October 1967, it's fair to guess that Siegel had plenty of leeway to cast the story in whatever light he felt appropriate. A key question would be when he wrote the lead paragraph.
While acknowledging the described time component of a few weeks after 11/28/66, it might make sense to cast a wider net on the time interval in the quest for four long-haired geniuses (with a very small 'g') who recorded a hit single at Gold Star. The latest that could possibly occur would be in time for the publication of Cheetah's first (October 1967) issue. Assuming lead time to print and distribute, a deadline of Sept. 30, 1967 would make sense.
So, given a broader time-scan, assuming that "I Can See for Miles" was indeed mixed and mastered at Gold Star on September 10, 1967, then released on September 18, subsequently to peak at Billboard #9 on October 14, a fair question might be: "Anybody know The Who?"
[Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere here. I have yet to process the entirety of EH.]
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Post by AGD on Jan 11, 2024 15:00:30 GMT -5
The very strong inference is that it was the same day.
"It was just another day of greatness at Gold Star Recording Studios on Santa Monica Boulevard in Hollywood. In the morning...
Now, however, in the very same studio..."
Also, mixing and mastering isn't anything like the same as "[knocking] out two hours of sound for a record plugger who was trying to curry favor with a disc jockey friend of theirs in San Jose." That is, recording. Similarly, why would a band who'd already had three Billboard Top 100 hits (albeit all middling to minor) want or need to curry favour from anyone: The Who already had a US contract with Decca. They weren't unknown in the US. Sorry Orville, it just won't fly.
Further, as far as can be checked out, Siegel's piece is correct in all the main points and a lot of the incidentals.
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daytona
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Post by daytona on Jan 11, 2024 15:07:43 GMT -5
“Groovin’” by the Young Rascals might fit the bill from a quick Wikipedia skim: only thing is Murray the K is based in New York and not San Jose.
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Post by Mikie on Jan 11, 2024 15:09:18 GMT -5
A newcomer's traipse through older threads reveals that back in 2019 Cam Mott posted links to some 1998 emails by Jules Siegel (EH thread: 'Jules Siegel's reply to David Anderle in "Smile Is Done"'). Who's Cam Mott? And I wonder which radio station in San Jose and who the DJ was. Maybe it was KLIV back then.
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alankard
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Post by alankard on Jan 11, 2024 15:15:07 GMT -5
The very strong inference is that it was the same day. "It was just another day of greatness at Gold Star Recording Studios on Santa Monica Boulevard in Hollywood. In the morning... Now, however, in the very same studio..." Also, mixing and mastering isn't anything like the same as "[knocking] out two hours of sound for a record plugger who was trying to curry favor with a disc jockey friend of theirs in San Jose." That is, recording. Similarly, why would a band who'd already had three Billboard Top 100 hits (albeit all middling to minor) want or need to curry favour from anyone: The Who already had a US contract with Decca. They weren't unknown in the US. Sorry Orville, it just won't fly. Further, as far as can be checked out, Siegel's piece is correct in all the main points and a lot of the incidentals. A fine and fair rebuttal, thank you! So the mystery artists play on.
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Post by AGD on Jan 11, 2024 15:15:35 GMT -5
Cam Mott? He's everything. We're nothing, we're just his messengers.
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alankard
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Post by alankard on Jan 11, 2024 15:17:08 GMT -5
A newcomer's traipse through older threads reveals that back in 2019 Cam Mott posted links to some 1998 emails by Jules Siegel (EH thread: 'Jules Siegel's reply to David Anderle in "Smile Is Done"'). Who's Cam Mott? And I wonder which radio station in San Jose and who the DJ was. Maybe it was KLIV back then. What about Captain Mikey?
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Post by Mikie on Jan 11, 2024 15:28:02 GMT -5
Cam Mott? He's everything. We're nothing, we're just his messengers. Does he like SMiLE?
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daytona
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Post by daytona on Jan 11, 2024 15:33:13 GMT -5
Cam Mott? He's everything. We're nothing, we're just his messengers. Does he like SMiLE? Don’t we all?
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Post by Cam Mott on Jan 11, 2024 21:07:11 GMT -5
Hi, alankard.
According to Siegel, his last meeting with Brian was circa Christmas Eve when they were entertaining each other with Brian's new videotape camera. As I understand him, by then, the first version was already written; shown to Brian who thought it was cartoonish but relented; been criticized by Anderle; and rejected by Saturday Evening Post (who had never actually authorized it).
Then it was rewritten for and sold to the New York magazine Sunday section of the World Journal Tribune (New York Herald Tribune plus two other newspapers), apparently in January, before Jules accepting a Cheetah magazine editorship. WJT thought the original "was a little bland” and asked Jules to “spice it up” and he made it more pointed. Publication of WJT had been held up by a 5 month newspaper guild strike and it ended up not published (though the paper had been in print since September 1966 but would close in May 1967).
Finally a third version was rewritten, apparently after August 7, for publication September 28 in the October 1967 issue of Cheetah.
Probably.
In my opinion Siegel's memory is reliable, I asked him back in the day if he still had any of his tapes for the article and said no because he didn't use tape. With events recent, I believe that Brian told him it was "Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" that night.
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Post by beachmallow on Jan 11, 2024 21:17:26 GMT -5
This is the first paragraph of Jules Seigel's legendary 1967 Goodbye Surfing, Hello God! article on Brian and Smile: "It was just another day [November 28th 1966] of greatness at Gold Star Recording Studios on Santa Monica Boulevard in Hollywood. In the morning four long-haired kids had knocked out two hours of sound for a record plugger who was trying to curry favor with a disc jockey friend of theirs in San Jose. Nobody knew it at the moment, but out of that two hours there were about three minutes that would hit the top of the charts in a few weeks, and the record plugger, the disc jockey and the kids would all be hailed as geniuses, but geniuses with a very small g." Has anyone ever found out - or even guessed - as to who the band might be? "In a few weeks" would seem to indicate mid/late December, and at first I thought it might be The Monkees and "I'm A Believer", but apparently they cut that at RCA in New York and also in LA. So... any ideas guys? Wild card guess? Thee Sixpence, AKA The Strawberry Alarm Clock who had a hit with Incense and Peppermints in April of 1967 when it was released as a B-side before becoming a number one hit in May. Their membership fluctuated, and some of their works were lost, others stolen. No idea where their stuff as Thee Sixpence was recorded, and there seems to be little information about that early period in their history. They recorded at Original Sound, located at 7120 W. Sunset Blvd.. Was Gold Star Recording Studios always located at 6252 Santa Monica Blvd.? Were these two studios only 1.6 miles away from each other at the time?
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alankard
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Post by alankard on Jan 11, 2024 21:52:26 GMT -5
Hello, Cam Mott. Thank you for providing those details. I'm sorry if doing so is a "repeat" from your perspective -- I'm still learning things in here.
The August 7 milestone is interesting -- why that date? Also, in your exchanges with Jules Siegel, did he ever mention the identity of the "four geniuses" noted in his lead? Surely it's a touch with a foil rather than a slash with a sabre -- maybe that's some of the spice WJT was looking for. Odd mysterious reference, though.
Thank you.
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Post by Cam Mott on Jan 11, 2024 23:35:33 GMT -5
Hello, Cam Mott. Thank you for providing those details. I'm sorry if doing so is a "repeat" from your perspective -- I'm still learning things in here. The August 7 milestone is interesting -- why that date? Also, in your exchanges with Jules Siegel, did he ever mention the identity of the "four geniuses" noted in his lead? Surely it's a touch with a foil rather than a slash with a sabre -- maybe that's some of the spice WJT was looking for. Odd mysterious reference, though. Thank you. In the October 1967 version of the Cheetah article, Siegel mentions some 1967 after-actions stuff which includes George Harrison visiting Haight-Ashbury (LLVS 88) which the interweb told me was August 7 1967. That was the latest event I was able to put a date to. I never asked about the "four geniuses".
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petsite
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Post by petsite on Jan 12, 2024 3:01:29 GMT -5
Who is Cam Mott? I have been wondering that for years. Why? Because no one person can have all that knowledge and be real. I deflect to him all of the time. Google the word genuflect.
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Post by Cam Mott on Jan 12, 2024 8:37:10 GMT -5
Cam Mott is that codger who is full of.......it......and very lucky to have old and new friends who are very generous and kind and patient.
(fanning his watery eyes (but not because of the cataracts))
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Post by Cam Mott on Jan 13, 2024 20:39:08 GMT -5
Oh, on that January date for the first rewrite: Jules had said he and Chrissie had gone to visit Thomas Pynchon and they all had smoked "some really strong grass" Siegel had gotten at a Human Be-in in Griffith Park, Chrissie said it was a small Be-In at Griffith Park. They stayed all night at Pynchon's and returned to where they were staying in Laurel Canyon the next morning. When they returned there was a message from New York offering Jules a job as an editor of Cheetah.
There was the first Human Be-In at Griffith Park of about 500 on January 14 1967 (also the first one in San Fran of 15,000 that day). A second Griffith Park Human Be-In on the weekend of February 26/27 1967 had attendance of 5,500.
I'm presuming Jules got the job at Cheetah within days after January 14, the small Griffith Park Be-In. Could have been a long while after the 14th but I'm guessing 't'weren't. I'm also presuming Jules revised and sold the story to World Journal Tribune before he agreed to be an editor for Cheetah, but maybe he didn't.
Anyways........
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daytona
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Post by daytona on Jan 14, 2024 8:22:35 GMT -5
Oh, on that January date for the first rewrite: Jules had said he and Chrissie had gone to visit Thomas Pynchon and they all had smoked "some really strong grass" Siegel had gotten at a Human Be-in in Griffith Park, Chrissie said it was a small Be-In at Griffith Park. They stayed all night at Pynchon's and returned to where they were staying in Laurel Canyon the next morning. When they returned there was a message from New York offering Jules a job as an editor of Cheetah. There was the first Human Be-In at Griffith Park of about 500 on January 14 1967 (also the first one in San Fran of 15,000 that day). A second Griffith Park Human Be-In on the weekend of February 26/27 1967 had attendance of 5,500. I'm presuming Jules got the job at Cheetah within days after January 14, the small Griffith Park Be-In. Could have been a long while after the 14th but I'm guessing 't'weren't. I'm also presuming Jules revised and sold the story to World Journal Tribune before he agreed to be an editor for Cheetah, but maybe he didn't. Anyways........ There was more than one human bein?
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