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Post by WillJC on Sept 27, 2023 2:22:01 GMT -5
Well, as Jim noted, Brian could not have reconnected with Al Any earlier than September 11 1961, which is when the El Camino school year started. I would dispute that for a long list of reasons.
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Post by AGD on Sept 27, 2023 6:50:56 GMT -5
For one, if Alan didn't roll up in LA and not immediately go visit with Brian, I'd be amazed.
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Post by WillJC on Sept 27, 2023 7:35:30 GMT -5
Al has placed his reunion with Brian on the El Camino campus as about a month into the summer semester running from late June to early August, before they were there in the fall. Mike has also written that the two were attending college together that summer. Al definitely registered for the summer session, although Jim tells me he has it from a reliable source that Al didn't take any classes. I'm not sure I buy that he didn't. Anyhow, there are other potential ways Brian and Al could've ended up bumping into each other on the campus over that summer, and it's just cosmically implausible that they didn't, taking into account the known dates and recollections of those months that can otherwise fit into a cohesive chronology if not for that one factor. I've exhaustively poured over that particular issue, and had many, many discussions about it from just about every angle you can imagine. Also, probably more importantly, there is tape evidence that Brian and the Islanders were singing together in (or before) August.
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bookofb
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Post by bookofb on Sept 27, 2023 9:58:27 GMT -5
Al has placed his reunion with Brian on the El Camino campus as about a month into the summer semester running from late June to early August, before they were there in the fall. Mike has also written that the two were attending college together that summer. Al definitely registered for the summer session, although Jim tells me he has it from a reliable source that Al didn't take any classes. I'm not sure I buy that he didn't. Anyhow, there are other potential ways Brian and Al could've ended up bumping into each other on the campus over that summer, and it's just cosmically implausible that they didn't, taking into account the known dates and recollections of those months that can otherwise fit into a cohesive chronology if not for that one factor. I've exhaustively poured over that particular issue, and had many, many discussions about it from just about every angle you can imagine. Also, probably more importantly, there is tape evidence that Brian and the Islanders were singing together in (or before) August.
Question-
According to Murphy's book (which convincingly elaborated on and clarified some things said in earlier sources) is this accurate:
(1) The Bruce Morgan "Rio Grande" session (for which Al was drafted by the Morgans) is the point at which Al and Brian first connect as musical collaborators in a studio setting;
(2) That the "Rio Grande" attempt occurred in the summer of 1961, or, in any case, before the Labor Day/end-of-summer audition
(3) Therefore Al and Brian were in contact with each other during summer 1961, before the school year started
Is this currently accurate to say?
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Post by WillJC on Sept 27, 2023 10:33:10 GMT -5
Al has placed his reunion with Brian on the El Camino campus as about a month into the summer semester running from late June to early August, before they were there in the fall. Mike has also written that the two were attending college together that summer. Al definitely registered for the summer session, although Jim tells me he has it from a reliable source that Al didn't take any classes. I'm not sure I buy that he didn't. Anyhow, there are other potential ways Brian and Al could've ended up bumping into each other on the campus over that summer, and it's just cosmically implausible that they didn't, taking into account the known dates and recollections of those months that can otherwise fit into a cohesive chronology if not for that one factor. I've exhaustively poured over that particular issue, and had many, many discussions about it from just about every angle you can imagine. Also, probably more importantly, there is tape evidence that Brian and the Islanders were singing together in (or before) August.
Question-
According to Murphy's book (which convincingly elaborated on and clarified some things said in earlier sources) is this accurate:
(1) The Bruce Morgan "Rio Grande" session (for which Al was drafted by the Morgans) is the point at which Al and Brian first connect as musical collaborators in a studio setting;
(2) That the "Rio Grande" attempt occurred in the summer of 1961, or, in any case, before the Labor Day/end-of-summer audition
(3) Therefore Al and Brian were in contact with each other during summer 1961, before the school year started
Is this currently accurate to say?
Yes, that's accurate. The point of contention is more over *how* they reconnected - Al has consistently related that his first time seeing Brian in a year was on the El Camino campus, which lead to getting together to sing with Gary Winfrey and a football player, which very quickly lead to Al's proper introduction to the other Wilsons and Mike, which was followed by Brian assisting the Islanders with Down by the Rio Grande, which lead to Al, Brian, Dennis, Carl and Mike trying out for the Morgans. That all had to be the summer, but the college attendance timeline causes some unresolved contradictions if Al's story is accurate *and* Jim's source on Al not attending classes despite registering is also accurate. Personally, I'm a believer that the encounter did happen at El Camino in some way around mid-late July, whether or not they were both actually taking classes at the time. I think there is reason to believe that they were (Mike and Al have said as such on different occasions), but that's up in the air. It's also probably fair to say that Brian and Al only became close as friends after spending more time together in the fall semester, because Al did drop out of the loop for a short while during the development of Surfin' after the audition.
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bookofb
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Post by bookofb on Sept 27, 2023 12:02:43 GMT -5
So basically:
Jardine is there at the initial Pendletones audition around Labor Day, where the "Surfin" idea is hatched.
Then, subsequently, Al drops out or is overlooked by the Wilsons as they write and work on "Surfin'." And this is (or could be) why we hear Brian on the Surfin' rehearsal say something like, "if you don't shape up, I'll get Al Jardine in here." As of the moment Brian says that, it doesn't seem that the Wilsons, or Brian even, are really thinking that Al is a genuine member of this thing that's forming. Is this fair to say?
And if that is true, then we can go on to say that Al is then brought back into the group by... when? Is he on any of the Surfin' practice recordings or the Guild/Morgan demos of "Surfin'?" Is Al performing on the final Candix single of "Surfin'?"
Thanks
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Post by WillJC on Sept 27, 2023 12:37:41 GMT -5
Yeah, that's it. Al wasn't there on Brian's home-taped rehearsal, but was present at the demo session at the Morgans' home studio singing Lavender, as Dennis didn't yet have a handle on learning those more difficult Freshmen-type harmony parts. He sat out of Surfin' and Luau recorded the same day, which must have both been practiced without him. The demo session was presumably some time after October 12 when the boys wrote out a lyric sheet for Surfin', listing Brian, Dennis, Carl and Mike as the Pendletones, but no Al. Al is definitely on the final versions of all three songs recorded in November at World Pacific.
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Post by AGD on Sept 27, 2023 13:08:54 GMT -5
Dammit, but I loves me this kind of thing.
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Post by AGD on Sept 27, 2023 14:10:41 GMT -5
FWIW, an extract from my speaking to Gary Winfrey some 21 years ago regarding his early friendship with Alan. If it's not an actual quote, the info is derived from his emails. "By mid-June, Alan was back in Los Angeles and enrolled at El Camino for a pre-dentistry course (El Camino is a local college with free tuition and many Hawthorne High grads went there): doubtless he knew that Gary was at the college, but was pleasantly surprised when he bumped into Brian again, and not just because he was an old high school buddy. Apparently one of the first things Alan did on his return to California was to resurrect The Islanders with either Gary's brother Don or Keith Lent replacing Bob Barrow… and it seemed that the Morgan's interest was genuine: they did call back. "So they called and said come on down as they had a song for us to record. My brother Don, who I believe was in Carl Wilson's class, was at school during the week, so we asked Keith Lent [who had previously been in one version of Carl & The Passions alongside Brian] to take his place that day. The song was written by Hite's son [Bruce] and was called "Rio Grande"." Gary remembers that it was after this session that Brian was first involved musically: "We were getting nowhere on the record and asked Brian's help. We didn't make much progress and dropped the project. Brian met Hite [again - he had auditioned for Art Laboe at Hite's suggestion four years earlier] and the rest is history." What apparently happened was that, in parallel with the revived Islanders, Alan was helping form a band with Brian - Gary recalls them (Gary, Al, Brian and some unknown) singing together in the Nurses Room at El Camino - his brothers and cousin Mike Love, and when he auditioned for Hite again, this time they, and not The Islanders, accompanied him. Whether or not they played "Rio Grande" or "Sloop John B" - or both - is unclear: what is certain is that when the Morgans asked if they had any original material, Dennis stunned his band mates by announcing that Brian and Mike had written a song about surfing. They hadn't, of course, but this little white lie was soon rectified… and the rest was, indeed, history." The complete fruits of my contact with Gary (a very nice guy - I think he may have passed now) can be seen here: In The Beginning...
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bookofb
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Post by bookofb on Sept 29, 2023 13:27:19 GMT -5
Thanks for the responses to my questions above; here’s another:
The Surfin’ practice/rehearsal (heard on Made in California set) includes an exchange between Brian and Murry (“what’s wrong?” Brian asks Murry) This is important because the date that was recorded is the latest possible date Murry is aware of what’s been going on with Brian and the Pendletones. It also might be the earliest known evidence of Murry’s knowledge of these goings-on - unless the Brian-Murry exchange happened after the signing of the Sept. 15 songwriting contract (in which case, Sept. 15 is the earliest date after which Murry must be assumed to know what’s going on)
So again - do we have an estimated date for the rehearsal heard on Made in CA?
Thanks
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sloopjohnb
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Post by sloopjohnb on Sept 29, 2023 16:16:10 GMT -5
That conversation between Brian and Murry is edited on from another tape, and it dates from about a year later than the Surfin' rehearsal.
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bookofb
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Post by bookofb on Sept 30, 2023 16:30:54 GMT -5
That conversation between Brian and Murry is edited on from another tape, and it dates from about a year later than the Surfin' rehearsal. Okay, thanks again.
So then whoever assembled the collage on the "Surfin'" rehearsal for Made in Cal. was trying to make it sound as if Brian and the boys are about to begin a take, but then Murry comes into the room, and Brian looks up and says, "what's wrong?" and then Murry says "Nothing, I just want to hear it." That was the idea beind this edit? (I don't expect an answer, just thinking aloud) Because I must say that edit is very convincing - it sounds like it all went down in sequence that day (I don't own a hard copy of liner notes to Made in California, so if this information is in there, I guess I wouldn't know about it)
So the Brian-Murry exchange occurred in 1962? Do we know when, or what song? Was that snippet of dialogue from '62 also recorded on the Wollensak (i.e. at home), or was it from a studio session?
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Post by AGD on Sept 30, 2023 17:45:09 GMT -5
"Creative editing" - one of the banes of any researcher's existence.
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west
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Post by west on Sept 30, 2023 21:34:48 GMT -5
I've wondered, who is it asking 'You guys wrote that song by yourself?' at the beginning of the 'Surfin rehearsal' track on the Good Vibrations boxset? Always thought it was Dennis...
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Zander
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Post by Zander on Oct 1, 2023 0:43:56 GMT -5
I remember this topic being talked about on the Smiley board years ago, there was a LOT of information there which may be of use here... Topic: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961 smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,9656.0.html
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Post by jk on Oct 1, 2023 3:39:10 GMT -5
I remember this topic being talked about on the Smiley board years ago, there was a LOT of information there which may be of use here... Topic: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961 smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,9656.0.html The old problem with links to Smiley, for me at least. I reckon it's that comma causing the problem. I've found if you cut and paste the URL into a new window, it will get you there pronto.
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Post by AGD on Oct 1, 2023 9:30:17 GMT -5
It's fascinating to revisit that thread in the light of the recent revelations about the 1961 (not)Labor Day trip. It's also rather sad.
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Post by Mikie on Oct 1, 2023 12:24:50 GMT -5
I've wondered, who is it asking 'You guys wrote that song by yourself?' at the beginning of the 'Surfin rehearsal' track on the Good Vibrations boxset? Always thought it was Dennis... Yep! Dennis Wilson.
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Post by WillJC on Oct 1, 2023 13:37:58 GMT -5
It's a kid in the neighborhood talking TO Dennis and the others, not Dennis.
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Post by Mikie on Oct 1, 2023 13:50:26 GMT -5
It's a kid in the neighborhood talking TO Dennis and the others, not Dennis. How do you know that, Will? Sounds like the same voice that introduces himself as Dennis Wilson with a partial address that was cut off. If it was a "kid in the neighborhood" then, could it be David Marks?
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bookofb
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Post by bookofb on Oct 1, 2023 14:42:15 GMT -5
I remember this topic being talked about on the Smiley board years ago, there was a LOT of information there which may be of use here... Topic: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961 smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,9656.0.html Thank you for the heads up on that old thread.
I read the thread, and together with other material what I'm getting overall is that it's possible (even likely) that there were two Murry-Audree trips: one to Europe, one to Mexico, with the Mexico trip occurring much later in the year.
What remains fairly constant and as-yet unchallenged is that (1) parents are away from home or out of the house; (2) they are absent for some extended period of time; (3) during that same time, critical strides are made by a newly-forming band. The band as of those crtitical days (if a "band" could be said to exist) consists of the Wilsons, Mike, and Al, who is sort of in-and-out. It seems as if a "band" doesn't really exist until such time that the "coins start coming in" (to use Mike Love's phrasing, as recounted in Murphy's book). So the principals have been playing around in various combinations in the neighborhood for a while, but once the door to the recording business opens, a lineup forms. (water seeks its own level, etc.) That is, whatever lineup generates a dollar is "the band" and that band turns out to be the five core Beach Boys.
The other constant in all this is that parents return home (it seems to me, they are returning from Europe, not Mexico?) to find the guys working with rented/purchased gear and that Murry has one of his fits.
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Post by AGD on Oct 1, 2023 14:55:49 GMT -5
The Mexico trip is documented in early November 1961. Murry & Audree did go to the UK, but in late 1959. Re-reading that thread is instructive, notably in that way too much credence was placed on the nonsense Ian Whitcomb made up about the non-existant Barry Haven. Yes, including by me. Similarly, Dennis' belief that his parents went to England in 1961 effectively derailed the investigation.
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west
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Post by west on Nov 8, 2023 13:53:43 GMT -5
Yeah, that's it. Al wasn't there on Brian's home-taped rehearsal, but was present at the demo session at the Morgans' home studio singing Lavender, as Dennis didn't yet have a handle on learning those more difficult Freshmen-type harmony parts. He sat out of Surfin' and Luau recorded the same day, which must have both been practiced without him. The demo session was presumably some time after October 12 when the boys wrote out a lyric sheet for Surfin', listing Brian, Dennis, Carl and Mike as the Pendletones, but no Al. Al is definitely on the final versions of all three songs recorded in November at World Pacific. Sorry to bring up this thread out of nowhere, but I've been recently diving into this fall 1961 time period, and it still leaves me a bit curious about Al and his mother and that bass. I'm in the same school of thought that Al wasn't there for the 'rehearsal' recordings we hear on Good Vibrations and MiC. (Why else would Brian threaten Dennis or whoever 'if you don't straighten up, I'm getting Al Jardine in here...') But if that's the case, then when did Al's mom help out with the stand-up bass? The legend goes that while Murry and Audree were away with associates in Mexico, the boys use the several hundred dollars left behind, and then Mrs. Jardine helps out with the rest. But if Al isn't present for the rehearsals, then his mother more than likely isn't helping with the finances. Just multiple questions pop into my mind. Was the bass only rented for the proper recording sessions at Stereo Masters, and not at the same time the boys rented the drums while their parents were away in early-to-mid-November? Did Al rent the bass only after the guys spent that time honing their craft and saw how serious things were getting with them?
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Post by AGD on Nov 8, 2023 14:20:32 GMT -5
What"holiday weekend"? The Wilsons & friends returned from Mexico on November 11th, a Saturday.
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west
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Post by west on Nov 8, 2023 14:54:28 GMT -5
My apologies, I went back and edited my post. Old habits do die hard I suppose.
And who knows with 100% cetrainty, maybe those rehearsal recordings weren't even made while the Wilsons were away.
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